3.2 VS 3.5!!

Forevralegend · 10-19-07, 10:40 PM

I wanted to settle this once and for all! which set up is truly better? the 3.5 or the 3.2 liter with almost every NA mod available for the legend. So who better to have tag along with me then the 3.5 king dv8? To settle the dispute we took a little trip to midnight performance, the same place dv8 has been dyno'ing for years. Dv8 and I essentially have the same modifications done to our cars.. cams, p&p, headers, full exhaust, the only difference between our cars is aem standalone ecu and the 3.5 conversion. So i brought my legend along for a good tune and dyno session at the same place to eliminate bias between dynos and so we could overlay our graphs to show exactly what the differences are between the 3.2 and the longer stroke of the 3.5.

During this dyno session, i took the time to also experiment with several of sr5guys chips compared to the stock chips and came up with some very interesting information! I also had time to experiment with the whole vis system in our manifold, first eliminating all the flaps, then connecting both flaps to the low solenoid, both to the high solenoid, then finally running normally. The conclusion was also very interesting to say the least..

Before i start i would like to thank dv8 for taking time out of his schedule and spending the day at the dyno with me.

The first objective of mine was to get my car tuned to its best capabilities before comparing with dv8s dynos. To do this i tested out several of sr5guys chips compared to the stock chip. The first graph i will post is the stock chip vs. the sr5guy stage 3 chip or as i labeled it 5% advanced timing. Below the picture i will have an explanation of whats going on.

as you can see, the top end was not effected very much with the change of chips, however if you look at the low end torque and hp you will notice a pretty significant power increase at some areas as great as 10 pounds of torque and 6hp. There were some areas that suffered maybe 1/2 hp or 1 hp, but there were enough gains to make up for those losses. Also if you notice the air fuel graph below, it has an almost perfect air fuel curve, there is no need to tune this chip, its plug and play.

The next chip I tried out was stock vs. sr5guys stage 4 chip, or as i labeled it 10% increased timing. Below the graph i will also have an explanation.

as you can see this chip had very similar gains to the stage 3 "5 percent timing" however, it increased power more through out the band. It seems to have around the same gain of about 10 pounds of torque and around 6 hp in some areas with the added midrange power, the peak hp numbers varied by about a hp, so there was no significant loss or gain up top.

I also dyno'd the stage two chip vs the stock chip, however i do not have that dyno but it was almost identical to the stage 3 chip with a little less power throughout the band. The chips seem to have a pattern, the more timing increase, the more power through out the band. Also all the air fuel curves were almost perfect for every chip, no need for an air fuel controller with these bad boys.

After determining that the best chip was the sr5guy stage 4 chip, I went ahead and installed that back into my ecu. I then decided to play with the VIS system in our manifold. For those of you that dont know what the VIS system is, click the SEARCH button. I first decided to disable the whole system which leaves the flaps in the manifold completely open. By doing this it gained me about two hp however i lost so much torque it was ridiculous! i lost about 10 pounds of torque in the lower end! I then tried both flaps connected to the low solenoid, i lost even more torque then both flaps open and i lost hp in the top end. I then tried both flaps on the High solenoid, my low torque pretty much stayed the same but my high end hp fell. Lastly i put the system back to normal and i got the best torque numbers and the best hp numbers. Here is a graph of the VIS dynos, you can compare these with my best dyno graph later in this thread since i used the factory VIS setup to achieve my max numbers.

now that i finally found my best set up, dv8 and i decided to overlap our graphs to compare NA power. Since dv8s most recent dynos are with the aem ems, we were able to find one of his best dynos before the switch to the standalone so that we could get a better comparison between the 3.2 and 3.5 liter engines. Here is an overlaped graph of the 3.5 vs the 3.2 with essentially the same modifications and about the same temperatures during dynoing.

::3.5 is blue, 3.2 is red:: as you can see, the longer stroke of the 3.5 liter not only increased midrange torque but midrange hp as well. Torque was increase in some areas as much as 30 ft pounds and hp was increase as much as 25 in some areas. However our peak hp numbers were very similar. For those of you that have swapped to a 3.5 liter engine, the facts are here.. its a great hp and torque yielding modification ::period::.

FallenAngel · 10-19-07, 10:51 PM

Proof that Dv8 has secretly put 2 engines under the hood.
Two more good graphs would be the stage 4 chip in Dv8's car to show how much the EMS helps and a tuned EMS in yours.

*Slightly interesting to note that the 3.5 starts overtaking again at 3.5k.

Forevralegend · 10-19-07, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel

Proof that Dv8 has secretly put 2 engines under the hood.

nope just one 3.5 liter monster

FF Drifter · 10-19-07, 11:15 PM

Very cool. Thanks to both of you for taking time out of your schedules to do this

My ass-calibrated dynamometer has been correct all along: the 3.5's peak power figures don't do any justice to the big jump in midrange power.

Blackend · 10-19-07, 11:16 PM

You did make 4 more HP

I'd love to see a race down the strip of these two monsters! Maybe switch cars and run the second race just to even it out??!!

Telion · 10-19-07, 11:20 PM

Excellent documentation, were you testing your car or DV8 because having him behind the wheel has to magically add 10-15hp alone.

Forevralegend · 10-19-07, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackend

You did make 4 more HP

I'd love to see a race down the strip of these two monsters! Maybe switch cars and run the second race just to even it out??!!

haha now thats a graph before dv8 went ems, now if you really want to see how much i would get bashed... check out the comparison between the current N/A dynos between our cars. Owch this one hurts

Forevralegend · 10-19-07, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telion

Excellent documentation, were you testing your car or DV8 because having him behind the wheel has to magically add 10-15hp alone.

thank you, haha i should have had him drive it damnit! o well

FallenAngel · 10-20-07, 12:28 AM

Heres an overlay of Forevralegend, Dv8 chipped and Dv8 EMS. Had to stretch it a little bit so its not 100% accurate, but you get the idea.
I have to point out Forevralegend owns the 2.9-3.4k range, which is the "normal" range for everyday freeway cruising.

*Dv8* · 10-20-07, 12:46 AM

I love this stuff! Thanks for the invite, the pleasure was all mine!

I would love to dyno cars for a living. Eric's not to far off from getting some more N/A power. Keep pushing, because as ive said before, theres no budget for our legends.

I have done everything to my legend with one goal in mind, to maximize N/A hp/tq without major internals before going FI. I leave that now to Eric,Ken and whomever else.

Its time to go big...

~Dv8

I must say, this is my favorite dyno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forevralegend

haha now thats a graph before dv8 went ems, now if you really want to see how much i would get bashed... check out the comparison between the current N/A dynos between our cars. Owch this one hurts

whats77inaname · 10-20-07, 12:56 AM

.......................

GreekPower · 10-20-07, 01:00 AM

damn now THATS a GOOD comparison. Great job both of you. You both are gods right hand for this.

Forevralegend · 10-20-07, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreekPower

damn now THATS a GOOD comparison. Great job both of you. You both are gods right hand for this.

thanks greekpower, im just trying to contribute a little to everyone on the forum

OverDrive · 10-20-07, 03:01 PM

Very cool guys!

FallenAngel · 10-20-07, 04:19 PM

Didn't Dv8 also pick up a couple of lightened pullies? Forevralegend's sig only lists the Type1 crank.

10-19-07, 10:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
Forevralegend Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sacramento Posts: 1,092 Car 1: 94 Legend gs type II iTrader: (11)	3.2 VS 3.5!! I wanted to settle this once and for all! which set up is truly better? the 3.5 or the 3.2 liter with almost every NA mod available for the legend. So who better to have tag along with me then the 3.5 king dv8? To settle the dispute we took a little trip to midnight performance, the same place dv8 has been dyno'ing for years. Dv8 and I essentially have the same modifications done to our cars.. cams, p&p, headers, full exhaust, the only difference between our cars is aem standalone ecu and the 3.5 conversion. So i brought my legend along for a good tune and dyno session at the same place to eliminate bias between dynos and so we could overlay our graphs to show exactly what the differences are between the 3.2 and the longer stroke of the 3.5. During this dyno session, i took the time to also experiment with several of sr5guys chips compared to the stock chips and came up with some very interesting information! I also had time to experiment with the whole vis system in our manifold, first eliminating all the flaps, then connecting both flaps to the low solenoid, both to the high solenoid, then finally running normally. The conclusion was also very interesting to say the least.. Before i start i would like to thank dv8 for taking time out of his schedule and spending the day at the dyno with me. The first objective of mine was to get my car tuned to its best capabilities before comparing with dv8s dynos. To do this i tested out several of sr5guys chips compared to the stock chip. The first graph i will post is the stock chip vs. the sr5guy stage 3 chip or as i labeled it 5% advanced timing. Below the picture i will have an explanation of whats going on. as you can see, the top end was not effected very much with the change of chips, however if you look at the low end torque and hp you will notice a pretty significant power increase at some areas as great as 10 pounds of torque and 6hp. There were some areas that suffered maybe 1/2 hp or 1 hp, but there were enough gains to make up for those losses. Also if you notice the air fuel graph below, it has an almost perfect air fuel curve, there is no need to tune this chip, its plug and play. The next chip I tried out was stock vs. sr5guys stage 4 chip, or as i labeled it 10% increased timing. Below the graph i will also have an explanation. as you can see this chip had very similar gains to the stage 3 "5 percent timing" however, it increased power more through out the band. It seems to have around the same gain of about 10 pounds of torque and around 6 hp in some areas with the added midrange power, the peak hp numbers varied by about a hp, so there was no significant loss or gain up top. I also dyno'd the stage two chip vs the stock chip, however i do not have that dyno but it was almost identical to the stage 3 chip with a little less power throughout the band. The chips seem to have a pattern, the more timing increase, the more power through out the band. Also all the air fuel curves were almost perfect for every chip, no need for an air fuel controller with these bad boys. After determining that the best chip was the sr5guy stage 4 chip, I went ahead and installed that back into my ecu. I then decided to play with the VIS system in our manifold. For those of you that dont know what the VIS system is, click the SEARCH button. I first decided to disable the whole system which leaves the flaps in the manifold completely open. By doing this it gained me about two hp however i lost so much torque it was ridiculous! i lost about 10 pounds of torque in the lower end! I then tried both flaps connected to the low solenoid, i lost even more torque then both flaps open and i lost hp in the top end. I then tried both flaps on the High solenoid, my low torque pretty much stayed the same but my high end hp fell. Lastly i put the system back to normal and i got the best torque numbers and the best hp numbers. Here is a graph of the VIS dynos, you can compare these with my best dyno graph later in this thread since i used the factory VIS setup to achieve my max numbers. now that i finally found my best set up, dv8 and i decided to overlap our graphs to compare NA power. Since dv8s most recent dynos are with the aem ems, we were able to find one of his best dynos before the switch to the standalone so that we could get a better comparison between the 3.2 and 3.5 liter engines. Here is an overlaped graph of the 3.5 vs the 3.2 with essentially the same modifications and about the same temperatures during dynoing. ::3.5 is blue, 3.2 is red:: as you can see, the longer stroke of the 3.5 liter not only increased midrange torque but midrange hp as well. Torque was increase in some areas as much as 30 ft pounds and hp was increase as much as 25 in some areas. However our peak hp numbers were very similar. For those of you that have swapped to a 3.5 liter engine, the facts are here.. its a great hp and torque yielding modification ::period::. __________________ mods- 2.5" mandrel exhaust, deleted cat, cold air intake, web cam regrinds, comp cam valve springs, port & polish heads and manifold, tb bypass, egr block, five speed clutch/flywheel, 80a polyurethane mounts all around, type 1 pulley, headers,re-fabed y-pipe, SR5guy Custom Chip, 6speed swap, safc II, strut bar, F/R sway bars, FL tie bars, ksports,tune 243.3 hp 197.7 ftlb N/A dynapack before manual swap 232.8 hp 204.0 ftlb N/A dynojet 10/19/07 13.737 1/4 mile @ 100.207 mph & 2.012 60' NA

10-19-07, 10:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
FallenAngel Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Ca Posts: 645 Car 1: 1992 LS Sedan - 3.5 iTrader: (1)	Proof that Dv8 has secretly put 2 engines under the hood. Two more good graphs would be the stage 4 chip in Dv8's car to show how much the EMS helps and a tuned EMS in yours. Slightly interesting to note that the 3.5 starts overtaking again at 3.5k. Last edited by FallenAngel : 10-19-07 at 11:07 PM.*

10-19-07, 11:15 PM	#4 (permalink)
FF Drifter It's stock, really. Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 3,070 Car 1: KA7 Legend sedan, 5 speed manual iTrader: (1)	Very cool. Thanks to both of you for taking time out of your schedules to do this My ass-calibrated dynamometer has been correct all along: the 3.5's peak power figures don't do any justice to the big jump in midrange power. __________________ -8000K HID low-beams/PIAA Spark 8000 high-beams/PIAA Plasma GT-X corners -Type II brakes/some weight reduction/new tires every 4-6 months -NA1 NSX wheels: Kumho Ecsta SPT 225/50V-16R in front, Kumho Ecsta ASX 205/60V-15R in rear -Custom built six-puck kevlar clutch/Lightened (aluminum) pulleys -[Mugen/Showa] suspension with remote-adjustable dampers -C35A1/C32A1 hybrid swap; smog legal (by GreenLight Auto)

10-19-07, 11:16 PM	#5 (permalink)
Blackend Blackend Motorsports Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: DFW Area Posts: 4,169 Car 1: Blackend Motorsports Car 2: 1995 LS Coupe iTrader: (23)	You did make 4 more HP I'd love to see a race down the strip of these two monsters! Maybe switch cars and run the second race just to even it out??!! __________________ NALM NAZI We Brought Them We Broke Them We WILL Rebuild Them Better! G2 Legend Engine Dampers NOW IN STOCK! Click Here!

10-19-07, 11:20 PM	#6 (permalink)
Telion Of the Telion Chip Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Hopefully In your ECU ;) Posts: 3,994 Car 1: White 91 KA8 5spd W/3.5, TII Cams & Manifold Car 2: White 91 KA8 JDM TII iTrader: (36)	Excellent documentation, were you testing your car or DV8 because having him behind the wheel has to magically add 10-15hp alone. __________________ \/Provider of The Telion Chip click here\/ http://telionsite.com or search Telion Chip 3.5, TII cams,pnp mani & springs,Telion Chip,HID's,H&R's/Koni's,Addco Sway bars,TII calipers,RH C2's,R.J. shifter,DV8 EGR plate,CAI,OBX headers,2.5" exhaust,hi-flow cat,K2 muffler,Stage III clutch,S&D rotors, KVR pads, blackend damper, a CF hood, AFC NEO, 3.5 Aluminum pulley, & Web cams. C&R Racing radiator and more to come.

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10-20-07, 12:28 AM	#9 (permalink)
FallenAngel Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Ca Posts: 645 Car 1: 1992 LS Sedan - 3.5 iTrader: (1)	Heres an overlay of Forevralegend, Dv8 chipped and Dv8 EMS. Had to stretch it a little bit so its not 100% accurate, but you get the idea. I have to point out Forevralegend owns the 2.9-3.4k range, which is the "normal" range for everyday freeway cruising.

10-20-07, 12:56 AM	#11 (permalink)
whats77inaname Renaissance. Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tx Posts: 3,240 Car 1: 91 5MT LS, 300k Car 2: 91 5MT LS, 183k Car 3: 03 G35 sdn (wife's) iTrader: (21)	.......................

10-20-07, 01:00 AM	#12 (permalink)
GreekPower Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pittsburgh,PA Posts: 10,458 Car 1: 1992 Acura L"S" Sedan Car 2: 1991 3/S Turbo's 2x Car 3: 2005 Grand Prix iTrader: (13)	damn now THATS a GOOD comparison. Great job both of you. You both are gods right hand for this.

10-20-07, 03:01 PM	#14 (permalink)
OverDrive Keeper of Keys Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mill Valley, CA (NorthBay Area) Posts: 590 Car 1: 91 Acura Legend L Car 2: 99 Acura TL Car 3: 03 E320 Mercedes iTrader: (1)	Very cool guys! __________________ 1991 Acura Legend 3.5 OD Edition

10-20-07, 04:19 PM	#15 (permalink)
FallenAngel Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Ca Posts: 645 Car 1: 1992 LS Sedan - 3.5 iTrader: (1)	Didn't Dv8 also pick up a couple of lightened pullies? Forevralegend's sig only lists the Type1 crank.

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