3.5 swap questions

whats77inaname · 11-07-06, 10:08 PM

1) Christian, if I'm not mistaken, you're using Type II heads, whereas Diaz, you used the entire RL setup. Why did each choose the heads you chose? Advantages/disadvantages?
2) Am I to assume that the pulleys on each (3.5 vs. 3.2) block differ?
3) Both of you are using Type I ECUs, correct? No CELs?

Alperovich · 11-07-06, 10:11 PM

IMO the RL heads are the way to go but enlarge the valves and get the cams redone.

Kenso · 11-08-06, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

1) Christian, if I'm not mistaken, you're using Type II heads, whereas Diaz, you used the entire RL setup. Why did each choose the heads you chose? Advantages/disadvantages?

If you use Legend heads the intake manifold won't fit (Legend or RL manifold) unless you widen the manifold. Same goes for the coolant passage in front of the manifold.

The advantage of the RL heads is that the manifold will bolt right up as normal. Disadvantage is the smaller intake valves (same size as Type 1) and weaker valvesprings (roughly equivalent to Type 1).

The Type 2 heads have the advantage in every way, except for the rather big problem of the manifold fitting.

Quote:

2) Am I to assume that the pulleys on each (3.5 vs. 3.2) block differ?

The crank pullies are different and will not interchange.

The best of both worlds would be reworked RL heads with Type 2 intake valves and valvetrain, along with Type 2 cams or regrinds. Not cheap I would imagine to have the headwork done to fit the larger valves.

**Mike Diaz** · 11-08-06, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenso

If you use Legend heads the intake manifold won't fit (Legend or RL manifold) unless you widen the manifold. Same goes for the coolant passage in front of the manifold.

The advantage of the RL heads is that the manifold will bolt right up as normal. Disadvantage is the smaller intake valves (same size as Type 1) and weaker valvesprings (roughly equivalent to Type 1).

The Type 2 heads have the advantage in every way, except for the rather big problem of the manifold fitting.

The crank pullies are different and will not interchange.

The best of both worlds would be reworked RL heads with Type 2 intake valves and valvetrain, along with Type 2 cams or regrinds. Not cheap I would imagine to have the headwork done to fit the larger valves.

The quote I got on mating the Type II valvetrain to the RL heads was $600. I really need to send my stock RL cams out for a regrind.

Ken, can you look up to see why the 02-04 RL engines had more horsepower and torque than the 96-01 engines? I'm wondering if they did anything to the heads or cams to get that extra push.

The Crank pulleys are totally different.

I'm using a totally stock Type I ECU. The only reason I have a check engine light is because my EGR valve is blocked.

I chose the entire RL setup because it was a lot easier than having the intake manifold customized, and having that water neck extended. I didn't have access to Type II heads either. Bone stock, my engine pushes 225 hp and 236 lb ft torque at the flywheel.

*Dv8* · 11-08-06, 11:14 AM

Whats777,

Its like Ken said. I did the type II head route because I saw the RL heads and the internals looked different to me back then. No one had done it and someone like ken wasnt around to tell me the differences between the two. I had a chiltons book that showed valvetrain specs; the TYPE II was superior to both the RL and Type I, so I wasnt going to pay for the RL heads if i didnt need them. I had no idea that the Type II heads were going to offset my manifold, but they did and i dealt with it by widing the manifold. If i would do it again i would have reworked the RL heads to have all the TYPE II componets fit. I want every ounce of power out of my motor with the options that are redily avalible. I may still do it whenever i pull the motor again.

Until Mike D dynos, we dont have a comparrison as to what the heads really do. I have a lot of dynos from when i first did the swap to now with headers and cams ect. so i would be really curious to compare Mike's progresses from stock to headers and cams.

So mike, you need to dyno.

~Dv8

**Mike Diaz** · 11-08-06, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dv8

Whats777,

Its like Ken said. I did the type II head route because I saw the RL heads and the internals looked different to me back then. No one had done it and someone like ken wasnt around to tell me the differences between the two. I had a chiltons book that showed valvetrain specs; the TYPE II was superior to both the RL and Type I, so I wasnt going to pay for the RL heads if i didnt need them. I had no idea that the Type II heads were going to offset my manifold, but they did and i dealt with it by widing the manifold. If i would do it again i would have reworked the RL heads to have all the TYPE II componets fit. I want every ounce of power out of my motor with the options that are redily avalible. I may still do it whenever i pull the motor again.

Until Mike D dynos, we dont have a comparrison as to what the heads really do. I have a lot of dynos from when i first did the swap to now with headers and cams ect. so i would be really curious to compare Mike's progresses from stock to headers and cams.

So mike, you need to dyno.

~Dv8

I'm working on it. I need to get moving before it snows. My car doesn't know what snow (and salt) looks like.

mrkeith · 11-08-06, 12:25 PM

I caught Mike's video on Youtube the other day,
and damn that coupe has balls! The 3.5's low-end
is vastly greater than the 3.2; both you and DV8 have
no problem roasting tires.

Ken--have you swapped yet?

k.

**Mike Diaz** · 11-08-06, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrkeith

I caught Mike's video on Youtube the other day,
and damn that coupe has balls! The 3.5's low-end
is vastly greater than the 3.2; both you and DV8 have
no problem roasting tires.

Ken--have you swapped yet?

k.

I can eat up a set of tires pretty damn quick. I can pull smoke until the middle of 3rd gear.

**Mike Diaz** · 11-08-06, 01:22 PM

Dyno results coming tonight. I finally got in at my buddy's shop. $50 for 3 runs.

Alperovich · 11-08-06, 01:55 PM

/\ sweet mike! thats a pretty good deal too! can't wait for the results!

**Mike Diaz** · 11-08-06, 01:59 PM

I don't have an extra O2 bung, so he said he's gonna use a sniffer at the end of my exhaust pipe.

whats77inaname · 11-08-06, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Diaz

Dyno results coming tonight. I finally got in at my buddy's shop. $50 for 3 runs.

Good deal. I picked up a 3.5 long block, and before anything goes in, I'm curious to see how this stacks up against Christian.

*Dv8* · 11-08-06, 08:40 PM

am i allowed to make a guess?

here goes:

1-250whp
1-250lbft

no seriously

185WHP
210LBFT

give or take 10 on both....

~Dv8

**Mike Diaz** · 11-08-06, 09:18 PM

From my PM to Christian:

max power = 187.64
max torque = 218.37

My air fuel ratio was between 12:1 & 13:1 the entire time. My torque curve is horrible because of the fluctuations in the air/fuel ratio.

There's at least 4 major dips in the torque curve. Torque and horsepower maxed out at 5200 rpm.

I have to scan the sheets at work. I have a lot to work on, that's for sure.

whats77inaname · 11-08-06, 09:22 PM

1) Is the car starving for fuel at any point?
2) How steep is the drop off after 5200rpms?
3) SAFC coming?

In comparing your numbers and Christian's numbers, it tells me what I needed to verify: with an RL motor, and a few mods, it is possible to have a mid 14 sec. Legend, which is my goal.

Mike, I know you don't have headers. Do you have an exhaust? Any other mods besides the air intake?

11-07-06, 10:08 PM	#1 (permalink)
whats77inaname Renaissance. Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tx Posts: 2,893 Car 1: 91 5MT LS, 271k Car 2: 91 5MT LS, 183k Car 3: 03 G35 sdn (wife's) iTrader: (21)	3.5 swap questions 1) Christian, if I'm not mistaken, you're using Type II heads, whereas Diaz, you used the entire RL setup. Why did each choose the heads you chose? Advantages/disadvantages? 2) Am I to assume that the pulleys on each (3.5 vs. 3.2) block differ? 3) Both of you are using Type I ECUs, correct? No CELs?

11-07-06, 10:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
Alperovich I'm the Stig! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Highland park, il Posts: 13,891 Car 1: 94 DM GS Car 2: 93 Coupe LS 6SPD :( Car 3: 99 2.3CL 5spd iTrader: (19)	IMO the RL heads are the way to go but enlarge the valves and get the cams redone. __________________ ~Alex \

11-08-06, 11:14 AM	#5 (permalink)
Dv8 Get sucked in... Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: CA Posts: 4,736 Car 1: 91' 3.5lt Extreme DV8ED Hybrid 6spd Car 2: 03' G35c Blk on Blk Car 3: 92'Yukon/06'Trailer iTrader: (11)	Whats777, Its like Ken said. I did the type II head route because I saw the RL heads and the internals looked different to me back then. No one had done it and someone like ken wasnt around to tell me the differences between the two. I had a chiltons book that showed valvetrain specs; the TYPE II was superior to both the RL and Type I, so I wasnt going to pay for the RL heads if i didnt need them. I had no idea that the Type II heads were going to offset my manifold, but they did and i dealt with it by widing the manifold. If i would do it again i would have reworked the RL heads to have all the TYPE II componets fit. I want every ounce of power out of my motor with the options that are redily avalible. I may still do it whenever i pull the motor again. Until Mike D dynos, we dont have a comparrison as to what the heads really do. I have a lot of dynos from when i first did the swap to now with headers and cams ect. so i would be really curious to compare Mike's progresses from stock to headers and cams. So mike, you need to dyno. ~Dv8 __________________ AEM EMS Powered. 9 yrs and counting. Results, Where are yours? 12.953@107.865MPH 95 deg. Jun. 07' 3.5 6spd-#55 jet Nitrous 316WHP@5500RPM 345Lb-ft@4100RPM NOS 06-07'N/A 234WHP@5700RPM 229lb-ft@4600RPM 06-07' 13.782@99.135MPH N/A 95 deg. Jun 07' 03' G35c Auto Vortech Supercharged pshhhh 14.3@96MPH-Stock 8 page spread Honda Tuning September 06' issue No Phone or Instant message, PM or Email only. Respect that! My Legends Website www.2slik4u.com

11-08-06, 12:25 PM	#7 (permalink)
mrkeith dealer-opted track pack Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: look behind you Posts: 3,508 Car 1: ka8 Car 2: chevro-legs iTrader: (2)	I caught Mike's video on Youtube the other day, and damn that coupe has balls! The 3.5's low-end is vastly greater than the 3.2; both you and DV8 have no problem roasting tires. Ken--have you swapped yet? k. __________________ The performance handling machine... If you've got coil-overs, corner-balance them! Please protect our environment: use a high-flow.

11-08-06, 01:22 PM	#9 (permalink)
Mike Diaz WHAAAAAH! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N Canton, Ohio Posts: 10,983 Car 1: 3.5L 1991 LS Coupe 5 Spd Blk/Blk Car 2: 1994 Civic EG Hatch Car 3: 03 Honda TRX400EX iTrader: (2)	Dyno results coming tonight. I finally got in at my buddy's shop. $50 for 3 runs. __________________ 2nd Gen FAQ \| Newbie FAQ \| Bleeding Coolant DIY \| Manual Trans Flush DIY 3.5L DIY \| Crank-No Start Diagnosis \| How I built My Legend

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11-08-06, 01:55 PM	#10 (permalink)
Alperovich I'm the Stig! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Highland park, il Posts: 13,891 Car 1: 94 DM GS Car 2: 93 Coupe LS 6SPD :( Car 3: 99 2.3CL 5spd iTrader: (19)	/\ sweet mike! thats a pretty good deal too! can't wait for the results! __________________ ~Alex \

11-08-06, 01:59 PM	#11 (permalink)
Mike Diaz WHAAAAAH! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N Canton, Ohio Posts: 10,983 Car 1: 3.5L 1991 LS Coupe 5 Spd Blk/Blk Car 2: 1994 Civic EG Hatch Car 3: 03 Honda TRX400EX iTrader: (2)	I don't have an extra O2 bung, so he said he's gonna use a sniffer at the end of my exhaust pipe. __________________ 2nd Gen FAQ \| Newbie FAQ \| Bleeding Coolant DIY \| Manual Trans Flush DIY 3.5L DIY \| Crank-No Start Diagnosis \| How I built My Legend

11-08-06, 08:40 PM	#13 (permalink)
Dv8 Get sucked in... Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: CA Posts: 4,736 Car 1: 91' 3.5lt Extreme DV8ED Hybrid 6spd Car 2: 03' G35c Blk on Blk Car 3: 92'Yukon/06'Trailer iTrader: (11)	am i allowed to make a guess? here goes: 1-250whp 1-250lbft no seriously 185WHP 210LBFT give or take 10 on both.... ~Dv8 __________________ AEM EMS Powered. 9 yrs and counting. Results, Where are yours? 12.953@107.865MPH 95 deg. Jun. 07' 3.5 6spd-#55 jet Nitrous 316WHP@5500RPM 345Lb-ft@4100RPM NOS 06-07'N/A 234WHP@5700RPM 229lb-ft@4600RPM 06-07' 13.782@99.135MPH N/A 95 deg. Jun 07' 03' G35c Auto Vortech Supercharged pshhhh 14.3@96MPH-Stock 8 page spread Honda Tuning September 06' issue No Phone or Instant message, PM or Email only. Respect that! My Legends Website www.2slik4u.com

11-08-06, 09:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
Mike Diaz WHAAAAAH! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N Canton, Ohio Posts: 10,983 Car 1: 3.5L 1991 LS Coupe 5 Spd Blk/Blk Car 2: 1994 Civic EG Hatch Car 3: 03 Honda TRX400EX iTrader: (2)	From my PM to Christian: max power = 187.64 max torque = 218.37 My air fuel ratio was between 12:1 & 13:1 the entire time. My torque curve is horrible because of the fluctuations in the air/fuel ratio. There's at least 4 major dips in the torque curve. Torque and horsepower maxed out at 5200 rpm. I have to scan the sheets at work. I have a lot to work on, that's for sure. __________________ 2nd Gen FAQ \| Newbie FAQ \| Bleeding Coolant DIY \| Manual Trans Flush DIY 3.5L DIY \| Crank-No Start Diagnosis \| How I built My Legend

11-08-06, 09:22 PM	#15 (permalink)
whats77inaname Renaissance. Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tx Posts: 2,893 Car 1: 91 5MT LS, 271k Car 2: 91 5MT LS, 183k Car 3: 03 G35 sdn (wife's) iTrader: (21)	1) Is the car starving for fuel at any point? 2) How steep is the drop off after 5200rpms? 3) SAFC coming? In comparing your numbers and Christian's numbers, it tells me what I needed to verify: with an RL motor, and a few mods, it is possible to have a mid 14 sec. Legend, which is my goal. Mike, I know you don't have headers. Do you have an exhaust? Any other mods besides the air intake? Last edited by whats77inaname : 11-08-06 at 09:50 PM.

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