85% tuned.

*Dv8* · 07-31-04, 08:53 PM

I finally got all the right peices to my puzzle called the Direct port system. Took it to the dyno and at least got a semi tuned run. Now i need to fine tune it.

Looks as though I have work ahead of me.

The peaks and valley's between 2600rpm-3700rpm are products of the legend ECU tring to figure out to do with the timming. Eventally at 3800 rpm it figures it and rolls with it.

The Tuner told me that i should really look in to finding a way to retard the timming. even if im running rich i could sill detonate becasue it could be too advanced.

Something that struck the tuner very odd was the fact that at 5800 rpm all power drops off. He says that with Nitrous it should make power for long after peak is achived compared to NA. However not exactly the same cutoff compared to N/A, but pretty close the power dies off all at once no matter what you do to the A/F.

The fine tuning needed is to step up the Nitrous jets one up and step one lower on the fuel(if even made, i think i already have the smallest). With the apexi tuned, fuel pressure adjusted, and pretty much the smallest jets for fuel in NOS existance, the A/F still ran way too rich between 3300rpm-5800rpm

At least the tuner said by the amount of TQ and WHP i have If i were to have full traction it would be good for a mid 12 second pass. I'm wating for UPS to show up with my slicks.

The two Dynos are to types of tuning configurations, both with their own strong point ans disadvantages. One makes more peak power while the other makes more all around.

305HP 335LBft Flywheel power@15%loss

~TRu Hybrid

91LSMAN · 08-01-04, 03:03 AM

One Word. Aweseome.

Sprung17 · 08-01-04, 05:16 AM

That is beautiful man. I will one day harass you and hire you to help me with my car.
-Vinh

Gerald · 08-01-04, 05:50 AM

That's too unreal!!!! Keep up the great work!!!

Dethred · 08-01-04, 06:53 AM

Why don't you take out the Bayou chip? I know that feeds more fuel in but its advancing the timing isnt it? Problem with that is without nitrous your times would suffer.

Crazy Cuban · 08-01-04, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dv8

305HP 335LBft Flywheel power@15%loss

to your Legend! DV8

jay93 · 08-01-04, 07:17 AM

I was thinking about your 3.5L. and you say you are running the legend ecu, I was thinking that you might need to go to the rl ecu because of the 300cc difference wouldn't that mean that your spark and the hole air fuel ratio is of by 300cc. short of full stroke. I mean you would not have spark and fuel at the right time because the ecu still thinks that it is a 3.2L so you correct me if i'm wrong but that sounds like the problem to me on your tuning ussies. Since these's motors do not have distributors it relies on the ecu right so that could be why it just shuts power off at that rpm and your timming seems to be off alot. I thinks your idea with the 3.5L is a outstanding idea I want to do it my self but just waiting for the bugs to get worked out of the swap first.

*Dv8* · 08-01-04, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay93

I was thinking about your 3.5L. and you say you are running the legend ecu, I was thinking that you might need to go to the rl ecu because of the 300cc difference wouldn't that mean that your spark and the hole air fuel ratio is of by 300cc. short of full stroke. I mean you would not have spark and fuel at the right time because the ecu still thinks that it is a 3.2L so you correct me if i'm wrong but that sounds like the problem to me on your tuning ussies. Since these's motors do not have distributors it relies on the ecu right so that could be why it just shuts power off at that rpm and your timming seems to be off alot. I thinks your idea with the 3.5L is a outstanding idea I want to do it my self but just waiting for the bugs to get worked out of the swap first.

Thanks ALL its been quite some time.

The RL ecu is OBD2 thus restricting me to tring it because it would throw all kinds of codes. The air and fuel arent the problem since the Nitrous supplies both its own and the AFC is being tunned according to the wide band 02's readings. the timming is the only entity thats not yet tunable. I have to find a tunable timming unit that intercepts the signal form the ecu and modifys it to my specifications.

Dethred,
I remeber talking to willy a while back about timming. He told me that it wasent modified in the chip over stock. Ill have to look into what MSD can provide along with APEXI etc. I also should lookinto a NSX ECU and see what its like. I know its DOHC but i know that it can be programed any which way.

~TRu Hybrid

jay93 · 08-01-04, 09:57 AM

It would not be that hard to swap out the wire harreness and ecu and some of the sensers if you could not find such a thing to interciept the timing then you would have obd2 that could have it's pulses. But i really think you have 15-20hp and 10-15fbt left to unleash when you get this timming right. The timming being off is not going to change very much on the torqe but it will smoth it out nicing. The big difference is the hp rating i think you will see a big jump in numbers there, you might even get power at higher rpm. Those are still very impressive numbers will the timming being off 300cc's. I think all you would have to change with the sensers is the map,o2,tps, maybe crank senser and maybe egr valve. I would think they would share alot of the same sensers, the wire hareness would not be that bad to do but you can't do any of that inless rl's had manuel transmissions I don't know if they did or not but there is got to be something out there I know that some msds you can retart the timming you should try and check one for a new z06 vett the have simular coil packs i'm sure you could find a universal one., but good luck let us know what you found.

Dethred · 08-01-04, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay93

It would not be that hard to swap out the wire harreness and ecu and some of the sensers if you could not find such a thing to interciept the timing then you would have obd2 that could have it's pulses. But i really think you have 15-20hp and 10-15fbt left to unleash when you get this timming right. The timming being off is not going to change very much on the torqe but it will smoth it out nicing. The big difference is the hp rating i think you will see a big jump in numbers there, you might even get power at higher rpm. Those are still very impressive numbers will the timming being off 300cc's. I think all you would have to change with the sensers is the map,o2,tps, maybe crank senser and maybe egr valve. I would think they would share alot of the same sensers, the wire hareness would not be that bad to do but you can't do any of that inless rl's had manuel transmissions I don't know if they did or not but there is got to be something out there I know that some msds you can retart the timming you should try and check one for a new z06 vett the have simular coil packs i'm sure you could find a universal one., but good luck let us know what you found.

English Please?

DV8: I could have sworn he said there was a timing increase. If not then awesome. I wonder if there is anyway to mess with timing like those Cheap ebay timing advance kits supposedly do... point being are there any possible wiring/resistor options available before you have to dump money into a new ECU or more in depth tuning?

*Dv8* · 08-01-04, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dethred

English Please?

DV8: I could have sworn he said there was a timing increase. If not then awesome. I wonder if there is anyway to mess with timing like those Cheap ebay timing advance kits supposedly do... point being are there any possible wiring/resistor options available before you have to dump money into a new ECU or more in depth tuning?

You can physically advance or retard the timming on the legend, but its only 2 degrees plus or minus. If you do anymore the ECU will override it. Thetimming adjust screw is under the black box on the firewall on the pass, side, where the mapsensor is among other things. Theres a metal cap over the adjusting screw you'll need to drill the rivits off.

I need more like 6-8 degrees retard upon Nitrous induction.

~TRu Hybrid

jay93 · 08-01-04, 03:49 PM

No matter anyway you look at your timming is off by 300cc beacuse the legend ecu thinks it is still a 3.2L. So I was thinking about this pretty hard and you don't need to buy anything because all you have to do is move the timing belt one tooth and the legend ecu will be fireing pretty close if not dead on. And you won't throw any codes because it is off 300cc right know so I think you could get that back by one tooth one the belt and the rest on the timing adjustment on the firing wall but you are going to need to re-adjust the fuel ratio because you were off that far when you tuned it. but just make sure when you change it one tooth you spin the motor over at the crank just to make sure it has clearence but I'm pretty dam sure it will. let me know your feed back on this, you could do a commpresion test and you will see the the valves are not closed all the way at the right time, does your starter sound like it spins a little bit easyer then it should be. I can't belive I did not think of this when you said the RL as one more tooth on the belt, it will work if not it will work alot better then it does now.

**B+O** · 08-01-04, 05:30 PM

anyways,

C:

I think the problem is the timing not because the engine is thrown off but because of the rod speed. the current timming is set to fire at smething like 20-40 degrees BTDC. where the rod speed of the Legends. supposedly, i read a while back that an engine with a too high rod speed with bad timming can out run the flame. no matter how much you put into it you end up on the ragged edge.

Jay, you have a misconception of how a stroker engine works the engine spins at the same speed the pistons are at TDC and BDC at hte same time just on the 84mm stroke of hte Legend the piston stays at TDC and BDC longer than the fast moving 91mm stoke of the C35

jay93 · 08-01-04, 06:00 PM

if you move the belt one tooth it is the same thing as if you turned your distributor you are making the valves open at a different time that is why it has teeth on it the valves and pistons need to move at the same time or else or timming is off so you adjust 6-8 degrees by altering that valve and piston time I'm not saying you can do this on any thing but i think this might bring his timming a little closer then it is. correct me if i'm wrong but i think the crank senser should control where and when to spark.

*Dv8* · 08-01-04, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay93

No matter anyway you look at your timming is off by 300cc beacuse the legend ecu thinks it is still a 3.2L. So I was thinking about this pretty hard and you don't need to buy anything because all you have to do is move the timing belt one tooth and the legend ecu will be fireing pretty close if not dead on. And you won't throw any codes because it is off 300cc right know so I think you could get that back by one tooth one the belt and the rest on the timing adjustment on the firing wall but you are going to need to re-adjust the fuel ratio because you were off that far when you tuned it. but just make sure when you change it one tooth you spin the motor over at the crank just to make sure it has clearence but I'm pretty dam sure it will. let me know your feed back on this, you could do a commpresion test and you will see the the valves are not closed all the way at the right time, does your starter sound like it spins a little bit easyer then it should be. I can't belive I did not think of this when you said the RL as one more tooth on the belt, it will work if not it will work alot better then it does now.

Bro, i appricate the ideas, but you underestimate my understanding of the Legend and RL engine. Do you not realize i spent countless hours figuring everything out before i did all the work myself? The ecu doesnt have a set understanding that one engine is 3.2 lt and the other is 3.5. Its just the fuel, air and timming are programmed accordingly to how the characteristics of the engine works. The RL was designed to pull high TQ numbers a low as possible in the rpm range, mated to a 4 sp auto geared low with head and cams designed for the same purpose. I took that block and mated them with type 2 topend orientated heads, and 6spd manual. So its really is no surprize why i make more TQ than HP and why its so low in the rpm range. It even makes sence why the power completely dies off at 6k. The block was never physically designed to make power that far our.

So your right i could physically move the belt one tooth advance or retard, but thats dangerous, because if the ECU decided to do +/- on the timming, it in addition to the belt being one toth +/- could mean serious trouble.

You have to understand another thing about the legend, the crank sensor is behind the driver cam sproket, not on the block. that there proves the extra displacement donesnt matter to the ecu if its a 3.2 lt or a 4.0 as long as the sensor is reading the same rotational signal everythings good to go.

So bottom line, i'll call MSD on monday and see what they can put together for me.

TRu Hybrid

07-31-04, 08:53 PM	#1 (permalink)
Dv8 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: CA Posts: 4,886 Car 1: 91' 3.5lt Extreme DV8ED Hybrid 6spd Car 2: 03' G35c Blk on Blk Car 3: 92'Yukon/06'Trailer iTrader: (11)	85% tuned. I finally got all the right peices to my puzzle called the Direct port system. Took it to the dyno and at least got a semi tuned run. Now i need to fine tune it. Looks as though I have work ahead of me. The peaks and valley's between 2600rpm-3700rpm are products of the legend ECU tring to figure out to do with the timming. Eventally at 3800 rpm it figures it and rolls with it. The Tuner told me that i should really look in to finding a way to retard the timming. even if im running rich i could sill detonate becasue it could be too advanced. Something that struck the tuner very odd was the fact that at 5800 rpm all power drops off. He says that with Nitrous it should make power for long after peak is achived compared to NA. However not exactly the same cutoff compared to N/A, but pretty close the power dies off all at once no matter what you do to the A/F. The fine tuning needed is to step up the Nitrous jets one up and step one lower on the fuel(if even made, i think i already have the smallest). With the apexi tuned, fuel pressure adjusted, and pretty much the smallest jets for fuel in NOS existance, the A/F still ran way too rich between 3300rpm-5800rpm At least the tuner said by the amount of TQ and WHP i have If i were to have full traction it would be good for a mid 12 second pass. I'm wating for UPS to show up with my slicks. The two Dynos are to types of tuning configurations, both with their own strong point ans disadvantages. One makes more peak power while the other makes more all around. 305HP 335LBft Flywheel power@15%loss ~TRu Hybrid __________________ AEM EMS Powered. 9 yrs and counting. Results, Where are yours? 12.953@107.865MPH 95 deg. Jun. 07' 3.5 6spd-#55 jet Nitrous 316WHP@5500RPM 345Lb-ft@4100RPM NOS 06-07'N/A 234WHP@5700RPM 229lb-ft@4600RPM 06-07' 13.782@99.135MPH N/A 95 deg. Jun 07' 03' G35c Auto Vortech Supercharged pshhhh 311WHP 274WTQ13.1@102MPH-on the brakes(108MPH) Hand fabbed Go-Kart 18whp 24wtq 8 page spread Honda Tuning 09-06' issue PM or Email only. Respect that! My Legends Website www.2slik4u.com Last edited by Dv8 : 07-31-04 at 09:01 PM.

08-01-04, 03:03 AM	#2 (permalink)
91LSMAN I like shiny Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Puyallup, WA Posts: 14,890 Car 1: 91 LS Coupe (GONE) Car 2: Current-02 Corvette Car 3: 94 LS Coupe (Bro's) iTrader: (4)	One Word. Aweseome. __________________

08-01-04, 05:16 AM	#3 (permalink)
Sprung17 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 548 Car 1: '93 Aegean Blue Evolution Exclusive KA7 iTrader: (0)	That is beautiful man. I will one day harass you and hire you to help me with my car. -Vinh __________________ Aegean Blue KA7 w/ an Evolution Exclusive body kit Custom crystalized JDM one piece headlight Carbon fiber hood Type II engine 2 1/4 mandrel bent cat back exhaust. Type I Bayou stage II ECU - A'PEXi S-AFC II Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump 17" Enkei CDR9 on Fuzion ZRi Eibach Pro-Kit/Koni Special Struts, front & rear KMS Front Tower Bar Addco Rear Sway Bar Front STS Cross drilled/Slotted rotors Goodridge Steel Braided Brake Lines

08-01-04, 05:50 AM	#4 (permalink)
Gerald Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 2,368 Car 1: 1991 Cobalt Blue KA8 Car 2: 1998 Kouki (sold) iTrader: (0)	That's too unreal!!!! Keep up the great work!!! __________________ Help Me Find White/Black KA8

08-01-04, 05:30 PM	#13 (permalink)
B+O The Mac vs. The Mack Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: VSC Moderator Posts: 12,421 Car 1: why? iTrader: (1)	anyways, C: I think the problem is the timing not because the engine is thrown off but because of the rod speed. the current timming is set to fire at smething like 20-40 degrees BTDC. where the rod speed of the Legends. supposedly, i read a while back that an engine with a too high rod speed with bad timming can out run the flame. no matter how much you put into it you end up on the ragged edge. Jay, you have a misconception of how a stroker engine works the engine spins at the same speed the pistons are at TDC and BDC at hte same time just on the 84mm stroke of hte Legend the piston stays at TDC and BDC longer than the fast moving 91mm stoke of the C35 __________________ "Untainted by Concept of Limitation" -BozzSpeed -Reiko my baby -The MAIN person Thank you Leon. Your words help God said it, and it was so. Forum Rules *flossin,* breakin off the intersection crossin RL'in, ackin a iz-ass on them bosses

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08-01-04, 06:53 AM	#5 (permalink)
Dethred Hi! I'm Ryan. Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Yorktown, VA Posts: 4,296 Car 1: 2008 Honda Civic Si Coupe Car 2: 92' Acura Legend 4DR iTrader: (2)	Why don't you take out the Bayou chip? I know that feeds more fuel in but its advancing the timing isnt it? Problem with that is without nitrous your times would suffer.

08-01-04, 07:17 AM	#7 (permalink)
jay93 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: st.george utah Posts: 63 Car 1: 93 white type2 coupe L iTrader: (0)	I was thinking about your 3.5L. and you say you are running the legend ecu, I was thinking that you might need to go to the rl ecu because of the 300cc difference wouldn't that mean that your spark and the hole air fuel ratio is of by 300cc. short of full stroke. I mean you would not have spark and fuel at the right time because the ecu still thinks that it is a 3.2L so you correct me if i'm wrong but that sounds like the problem to me on your tuning ussies. Since these's motors do not have distributors it relies on the ecu right so that could be why it just shuts power off at that rpm and your timming seems to be off alot. I thinks your idea with the 3.5L is a outstanding idea I want to do it my self but just waiting for the bugs to get worked out of the swap first.

08-01-04, 09:57 AM	#9 (permalink)
jay93 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: st.george utah Posts: 63 Car 1: 93 white type2 coupe L iTrader: (0)	It would not be that hard to swap out the wire harreness and ecu and some of the sensers if you could not find such a thing to interciept the timing then you would have obd2 that could have it's pulses. But i really think you have 15-20hp and 10-15fbt left to unleash when you get this timming right. The timming being off is not going to change very much on the torqe but it will smoth it out nicing. The big difference is the hp rating i think you will see a big jump in numbers there, you might even get power at higher rpm. Those are still very impressive numbers will the timming being off 300cc's. I think all you would have to change with the sensers is the map,o2,tps, maybe crank senser and maybe egr valve. I would think they would share alot of the same sensers, the wire hareness would not be that bad to do but you can't do any of that inless rl's had manuel transmissions I don't know if they did or not but there is got to be something out there I know that some msds you can retart the timming you should try and check one for a new z06 vett the have simular coil packs i'm sure you could find a universal one., but good luck let us know what you found.

08-01-04, 03:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
jay93 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: st.george utah Posts: 63 Car 1: 93 white type2 coupe L iTrader: (0)	No matter anyway you look at your timming is off by 300cc beacuse the legend ecu thinks it is still a 3.2L. So I was thinking about this pretty hard and you don't need to buy anything because all you have to do is move the timing belt one tooth and the legend ecu will be fireing pretty close if not dead on. And you won't throw any codes because it is off 300cc right know so I think you could get that back by one tooth one the belt and the rest on the timing adjustment on the firing wall but you are going to need to re-adjust the fuel ratio because you were off that far when you tuned it. but just make sure when you change it one tooth you spin the motor over at the crank just to make sure it has clearence but I'm pretty dam sure it will. let me know your feed back on this, you could do a commpresion test and you will see the the valves are not closed all the way at the right time, does your starter sound like it spins a little bit easyer then it should be. I can't belive I did not think of this when you said the RL as one more tooth on the belt, it will work if not it will work alot better then it does now.

08-01-04, 06:00 PM	#14 (permalink)
jay93 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: st.george utah Posts: 63 Car 1: 93 white type2 coupe L iTrader: (0)	if you move the belt one tooth it is the same thing as if you turned your distributor you are making the valves open at a different time that is why it has teeth on it the valves and pistons need to move at the same time or else or timming is off so you adjust 6-8 degrees by altering that valve and piston time I'm not saying you can do this on any thing but i think this might bring his timming a little closer then it is. correct me if i'm wrong but i think the crank senser should control where and when to spark.

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