The Bare TRUTH about Legend headers

*Dv8* · 07-31-02, 06:57 AM

As some of you have noticed, my decline in replying- or even visiting the legend community online. Maybe im just gettin old like DAVE C or ALEXEI, even though he's never around anymore. Anyway ive been working and scheming with one of the best guys in the business and when the best in the business tells you his opinion its usually as valid as scripture in stone.

Long Tube headers, defined as individual tubes comming off of each exhaust port 19-24 inches, into a collector, then into one tube and then a Y. better defined as 3-1 on each side.

The design is the most optimal, Guaranteed 40+WHP High claims!? yea i know its hard to belive, but he swears by it.
However, they cant be made because it would require you to rip out you heads or the entire block to install. same goes for uninstallation. Probably NOT EMISSION friendly.

WHY?

WE DONT HAVE ROOM, NONE. For an experienced header builder/designer to say, "damn theres no room" then that means theres no room.

Alternative, Short tube headers. Defined as individual tubes off of each exhaust port in to a collerctor 6-12 inches and in to a single tube then to a Y. 15-30WHP.

Doesnt sound to bad huh? well its gets worse. even the short tube headers are to big, however if you use smaller than optimal pipes then it will fit. so from 3/4 - 5/8 dimater you go down to 1/4-1/2. HP could literaly be cut in half or reduced to mere nothing.

BUT, since we have stock LOG exhaust manifolds, LOG meaning that the exhaust ports share the same outlet holes, and escape through the same very small exit to the exhaust manifold hole. we should gain at LEAST 10WHP, since the stock is such a poor design.

doesnt sound like much, well be optimistic i still think it will output 15-20 WHP thats 18-24 HP to the crank N/A which isint bad considering Under NOS, its doubled.

So whats the hold up? well frankly its still going to cost the same amount of money to produce. where there was once the thought that 30+WHP could be achived the fact it cost 1100-1300 could be understood coonsidering the parts avalible for the car, but with a yeild of 15-20 it sounds less appealing to the people that just arent that rich.

Id still do it 15-20 is worth 1100-1300, but im aming for 1000-1100.

So my Statement and question is clear, DONT expect the Legend to yeild A MAJOR WHP # unless you tear apart the car to install a set of long tube headers ever, and whos still willing to go ahead with anywhere in the vicinity of 10-20 WHP?

Quality as we all know it is impeacable, aircraft Grade SS mandrel bends smooth as glass welds inside and out and C&C machined flanges.

Let me know what you all think by replying to this thread, Any stupid, retarded, and unessasary replies should be directed to LegendTypeRKon thread in this very forum about LONG TUBE HEADERS, i will not tolerate uselessness.

~Hybrid

E K · 07-31-02, 07:07 AM

I agree 100% with the install issue. This is not going to be a simple job.

I'm still willing to put up $1000 for 10 WHP. The stock log manifolds drive me nuts. They designed a great engine, then stick on the most retarded design for exhaust manifolds.

Any word on when we might be able to see these headers?

Dave C ver2.0 · 07-31-02, 07:28 AM

Don't I know it. What really makes it difficult is having the axels right under the center cylinder where you would normally route shorties. Type I engines are even worse with having to rig up the air suction tube connection.

I had 1 dickhead shop here say $5K because of the clearance issues, so $1K don't sound bad to me. Also compare to $500 to extrude hone you stock manifolds and it looks even better.

I've already had one shop throw up it's hands half way through the left side, still looking for another brave soul to try the job.

All I can say is good luck Christian.

Now what happened with those JDM Type II headers???????

**502 MotorSports** · 07-31-02, 09:06 AM

I agree Christian. I am with you on this one. Will these shorties be emissions legal?

And I REALLY appreciate you coming out and telling us what's going on, some people as you mentioned blow a lot of soke and have no fire to support it. I won't be able to install the mtil after NOPI, but I am sure it will take a moment to finish R + D anyways.

do it man

NickD · 07-31-02, 12:15 PM

Thanks for all the info DV8.

I think I am going to go ahead and send my exaust manifolds to Extrude Hone though. Mostly because of time/money restraints really. We can do a comparo on Extrude Hone (~15hp claimed for $500) vs. Shorty headers (~15 - ~20hp claimed for $1100).

I defiently believe your shorty headers will meet your claims... I still believe 15hp from the extrude hone is optimistic but I'll send my manifolds out probably when I get back from vacation in 3 weeks and we'll see what Extrude Hone says when they see them.

Unfortunatly I can not do a before/after dyno and I am doing too many modification at once to determine just the performance increase from the Extrude Hone job so I guess it will be difficult to do a real comparison. I will however be going to a dyno after I finish up my car sometime mid/late September.

DSL · 07-31-02, 08:54 PM

i got a question/suggestion...

i have no idea if this will work, but is it not possible to make our headers like motorcycle style, where you use either springs or bolts to attach the tubes together ( i think its called "slip on") . then all that would have to be done is to install smaller parts, then assemble under the car...

2low2go · 08-01-02, 12:19 AM

Everyone out there should believe Dv8 if he says they won't fit then they won't fit! If anyone has researched Headers for our Legends it's Christian. He knows his sh-t. As for that other guy who claims he can get them for $600 (long tube), obviously his "mechanic" is trying to screw him.

Don't be fooled by misconceptions.......if your gonna do it, do it right.

08-01-02, 11:13 AM

Looks like we'll just have to find other ways to gain this kinda power in our Legends? Turbo,

theGodfather · 08-01-02, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SpeedDemon
Looks like we'll just have to find other ways to gain this kinda power in our Legends? Turbo,

What sucks is if it's almost impossible to make any type of headers for our engines, a turbo would also yield the same difficulties. A turbo will require a much more complex exhaust manifold system then a set of headers.

A supercharger right now seems like the most feasable, however even with a SC, you will require a set of good headers to compensate for FI.

Only if our cars were RWD, then maybe we wouldn't have these damn clearance issues.

G

08-01-02, 07:17 PM

Well, then lets make them rear wheel drive :p. Hehe

NickD · 08-01-02, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SpeedDemon
Well, then lets make them rear wheel drive :p. Hehe

A RWD version of the Legend does exist. It's called a BMW 530i

That is what the Legend would have been if Acura went RWD and didn't chop of the RLs nuts.

08-01-02, 10:02 PM

Hmm, yeah, but us coupe guys would be more right there with a BMW 330ci. I feel honestly that the BMW 330Ci/M3 (E46), is equally as gorgeous as a Legend Coupe if not more so; especially the M3.

CWA-94GS · 08-03-02, 10:23 AM

DV8,

I agree with you. I gave up on long tube headers and have been mostly looking into short tube, high performance manifold options. I think header install/uninstall will always be difficult no matter what design, so I consider that a given. No modifications are emissions friendly since more hp means more fuel burning, hence increased emissions. I have a few questions and I would appreciate it if you would take the time to answer them.

1. How are you intending to route the headers and where exactly are the fitment issues for long or short headers? I am assuming he intends to go straight down and then back.

2. Is this an "untuned" design. I am more interested in increased airflow than tuning. Tuning short tube headers would produce peaks in the high end and I am looking for low end (long tube). Would these headers provide the gains you mentioned for most of the RPM range?

3. Is the high cost a result of manufacturing or design? After you have validated the prototypes you could probably have them built elsewhere in quantity for much less.

4. What is needed to start the project and what kind of a time frame are we looking at?

Sorry for the long post, but I am quite interested in putting the talk and opinions aside and finally seeing something done. Let me know how I can be of assistance.

Chris

*Dv8* · 08-03-02, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CWA-94GS
DV8,

I agree with you. I gave up on long tube headers and have been mostly looking into short tube, high performance manifold options. I think header install/uninstall will always be difficult no matter what design, so I consider that a given. No modifications are emissions friendly since more hp means more fuel burning, hence increased emissions. I have a few questions and I would appreciate it if you would take the time to answer them.

1. How are you intending to route the headers and where exactly are the fitment issues for long or short headers? I am assuming he intends to go straight down and then back.

2. Is this an "untuned" design. I am more interested in increased airflow than tuning. Tuning short tube headers would produce peaks in the high end and I am looking for low end (long tube). Would these headers provide the gains you mentioned for most of the RPM range?

3. Is the high cost a result of manufacturing or design? After you have validated the prototypes you could probably have them built elsewhere in quantity for much less.

4. What is needed to start the project and what kind of a time frame are we looking at?

Sorry for the long post, but I am quite interested in putting the talk and opinions aside and finally seeing something done. Let me know how I can be of assistance.

Chris

1.
Fitment issues are mainly comming off the heads. the shock towers are real close. The new manifold would have to be made at a 90 degree angle to try and stray from the tower, then the differntial and hald axel pose a problem not to mention the wrap around torwards the Y pipe junction. The cure is smaller diameter piping, but to small is not good.

2.
The purpose of these headers are to uncap all possable airflow, period. but with the tuners extensive knowlegde he can and will do tuning with stepped and reversion if he deems it possable and nessasary.

3.
Nobody has the balls or the intrest in trying to make them, i have a little edge on my current tuner because he kinda of owes me. Allthough the prototype would be made then the copies would be made else where, its still $$.

4.
MY tuner works slow, but if i dropped the money in his lap he'd have no excuse not to start right away. id give him 3months to come up with the final design.like i stated before he has my engine in his shop. the design would be verified by placing it on my own legend.

5.
What it comes down to is money, a good set of anything needs time and time means MONEY. If i get two Legend owners willing to put up 800-1000 each in addition with my funds, it will come true. NOBODY will ever be jipped by me, i obiously provide nothing but pure performance, starting from the FIRST TYPEII engine swap, 13.57@104 to CustOm Legend CAI's.

Once made the two that contributed their amount would go torwards their own set most likley discounted for their efforts.

ANYONE interested, please speak up, its time.
~Hybrid

E K · 08-03-02, 10:13 PM

DV8,

If I put up X amount of $$ now, would I get X amout off the total price of the headers once complete?

I can put up $1000 right now (only through check though). Email me if you want to talk.

07-31-02, 06:57 AM	#1 (permalink)
Dv8 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: CA Posts: 4,885 Car 1: 91' 3.5lt Extreme DV8ED Hybrid 6spd Car 2: 03' G35c Blk on Blk Car 3: 92'Yukon/06'Trailer iTrader: (11)	The Bare TRUTH about Legend headers As some of you have noticed, my decline in replying- or even visiting the legend community online. Maybe im just gettin old like DAVE C or ALEXEI, even though he's never around anymore. Anyway ive been working and scheming with one of the best guys in the business and when the best in the business tells you his opinion its usually as valid as scripture in stone. Long Tube headers, defined as individual tubes comming off of each exhaust port 19-24 inches, into a collector, then into one tube and then a Y. better defined as 3-1 on each side. The design is the most optimal, Guaranteed 40+WHP High claims!? yea i know its hard to belive, but he swears by it. However, they cant be made because it would require you to rip out you heads or the entire block to install. same goes for uninstallation. Probably NOT EMISSION friendly. WHY? WE DONT HAVE ROOM, NONE. For an experienced header builder/designer to say, "damn theres no room" then that means theres no room. Alternative, Short tube headers. Defined as individual tubes off of each exhaust port in to a collerctor 6-12 inches and in to a single tube then to a Y. 15-30WHP. Doesnt sound to bad huh? well its gets worse. even the short tube headers are to big, however if you use smaller than optimal pipes then it will fit. so from 3/4 - 5/8 dimater you go down to 1/4-1/2. HP could literaly be cut in half or reduced to mere nothing. BUT, since we have stock LOG exhaust manifolds, LOG meaning that the exhaust ports share the same outlet holes, and escape through the same very small exit to the exhaust manifold hole. we should gain at LEAST 10WHP, since the stock is such a poor design. doesnt sound like much, well be optimistic i still think it will output 15-20 WHP thats 18-24 HP to the crank N/A which isint bad considering Under NOS, its doubled. So whats the hold up? well frankly its still going to cost the same amount of money to produce. where there was once the thought that 30+WHP could be achived the fact it cost 1100-1300 could be understood coonsidering the parts avalible for the car, but with a yeild of 15-20 it sounds less appealing to the people that just arent that rich. Id still do it 15-20 is worth 1100-1300, but im aming for 1000-1100. So my Statement and question is clear, DONT expect the Legend to yeild A MAJOR WHP # unless you tear apart the car to install a set of long tube headers ever, and whos still willing to go ahead with anywhere in the vicinity of 10-20 WHP? Quality as we all know it is impeacable, aircraft Grade SS mandrel bends smooth as glass welds inside and out and C&C machined flanges. Let me know what you all think by replying to this thread, Any stupid, retarded, and unessasary replies should be directed to LegendTypeRKon thread in this very forum about LONG TUBE HEADERS, i will not tolerate uselessness. ~Hybrid __________________ AEM EMS Powered. 9 yrs and counting. Results, Where are yours? 12.953@107.865MPH 95 deg. Jun. 07' 3.5 6spd-#55 jet Nitrous 316WHP@5500RPM 345Lb-ft@4100RPM NOS 06-07'N/A 234WHP@5700RPM 229lb-ft@4600RPM 06-07' 13.782@99.135MPH N/A 95 deg. Jun 07' 03' G35c Auto Vortech Supercharged pshhhh 311WHP 274WTQ13.1@102MPH-on the brakes(108MPH) Hand fabbed Go-Kart 18whp 24wtq 8 page spread Honda Tuning 09-06' issue PM or Email only. Respect that! My Legends Website www.2slik4u.com

07-31-02, 07:07 AM	#2 (permalink)
E K Junior Mint Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: SGV & SouthBay Posts: 640 Car 1: 91 Legend, 03 G35 iTrader: (0)	I agree 100% with the install issue. This is not going to be a simple job. I'm still willing to put up $1000 for 10 WHP. The stock log manifolds drive me nuts. They designed a great engine, then stick on the most retarded design for exhaust manifolds. Any word on when we might be able to see these headers? __________________ 91 Acura Legend Sedan LS 173 HP/180 torque 03.5 Infiniti G35 Coupe 5AT for sale 06 Infiniti Athens Blue G35 Coupe 6MT

07-31-02, 07:28 AM	#3 (permalink)
Dave C ver2.0 rh eller Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Rockville Md Posts: 1,951 Car 1: 92 L sedan and 88 LS sedan (wifes) iTrader: (1)	Don't I know it. What really makes it difficult is having the axels right under the center cylinder where you would normally route shorties. Type I engines are even worse with having to rig up the air suction tube connection. I had 1 dickhead shop here say $5K because of the clearance issues, so $1K don't sound bad to me. Also compare to $500 to extrude hone you stock manifolds and it looks even better. I've already had one shop throw up it's hands half way through the left side, still looking for another brave soul to try the job. All I can say is good luck Christian. Now what happened with those JDM Type II headers??????? __________________ Started rebuilding IC engines in 1968 at the US Merchant Marine Academy. Don't think you know more than me about auto/IC/control systems unless you can document your education.

07-31-02, 09:06 AM	#4 (permalink)
502 MotorSports 502MotorSports.com Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: ATLVILLE Posts: 9,445 Car 1: e39 540i Car 2: e46 325xi \| e46 330i Car 3: S430 iTrader: (0)	I agree Christian. I am with you on this one. Will these shorties be emissions legal? And I REALLY appreciate you coming out and telling us what's going on, some people as you mentioned blow a lot of soke and have no fire to support it. I won't be able to install the mtil after NOPI, but I am sure it will take a moment to finish R + D anyways. do it man __________________ The Hotness! Elevate Your Standards.... Legend Mod Money! Jasmyn \| Final e39 Pics \| 502MotorSports MySpace

08-01-02, 12:19 AM	#7 (permalink)
2low2go SHAVED & DRAGG*N' Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Valencia, Cali Posts: 72 Car 1: 1992 Legend 4Dr. LS iTrader: (0)	Dv8 knows what's up Everyone out there should believe Dv8 if he says they won't fit then they won't fit! If anyone has researched Headers for our Legends it's Christian. He knows his sh-t. As for that other guy who claims he can get them for $600 (long tube), obviously his "mechanic" is trying to screw him. Don't be fooled by misconceptions.......if your gonna do it, do it right. __________________ '92 Legend Sedan LS stock bumpers (body kits break too easy!!) Fully shaved; doors, moldings, antenna, trunk, emblems, hood squirters, and the marker lights, and whatever else can be shaved!! Custom White W/Blue Pearl Paint Custom Cold Air Intake Custom Dual Exhaust 18" MKW MK9's flush mounted 7" monitor w/DVD FOR SALE $3,000 OBO Email Me For Infoor call (661)312-2901

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07-31-02, 12:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
NickD Bk F*er Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lebanon, NJ Posts: 2,633 Car 1: 1991 Frost White L Sedan Car 2: 1999 BMW 328i 5speed iTrader: (0)	Thanks for all the info DV8. I think I am going to go ahead and send my exaust manifolds to Extrude Hone though. Mostly because of time/money restraints really. We can do a comparo on Extrude Hone (~15hp claimed for $500) vs. Shorty headers (~15 - ~20hp claimed for $1100). I defiently believe your shorty headers will meet your claims... I still believe 15hp from the extrude hone is optimistic but I'll send my manifolds out probably when I get back from vacation in 3 weeks and we'll see what Extrude Hone says when they see them. Unfortunatly I can not do a before/after dyno and I am doing too many modification at once to determine just the performance increase from the Extrude Hone job so I guess it will be difficult to do a real comparison. I will however be going to a dyno after I finish up my car sometime mid/late September.

07-31-02, 08:54 PM	#6 (permalink)
DSL Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: LA, CA Posts: 273 Car 1: '93 white coupe 3.5 type II 6sp iTrader: (3)	i got a question/suggestion... i have no idea if this will work, but is it not possible to make our headers like motorcycle style, where you use either springs or bolts to attach the tubes together ( i think its called "slip on") . then all that would have to be done is to install smaller parts, then assemble under the car...

08-01-02, 11:13 AM	#8 (permalink)
Posts: n/a	Looks like we'll just have to find other ways to gain this kinda power in our Legends? Turbo,

08-01-02, 07:17 PM	#10 (permalink)
Posts: n/a	Well, then lets make them rear wheel drive :p. Hehe

08-01-02, 10:02 PM	#12 (permalink)
Posts: n/a	Hmm, yeah, but us coupe guys would be more right there with a BMW 330ci. I feel honestly that the BMW 330Ci/M3 (E46), is equally as gorgeous as a Legend Coupe if not more so; especially the M3.

08-03-02, 10:23 AM	#13 (permalink)
CWA-94GS Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Massachussetts Posts: 83 iTrader: (0)	DV8, I agree with you. I gave up on long tube headers and have been mostly looking into short tube, high performance manifold options. I think header install/uninstall will always be difficult no matter what design, so I consider that a given. No modifications are emissions friendly since more hp means more fuel burning, hence increased emissions. I have a few questions and I would appreciate it if you would take the time to answer them. 1. How are you intending to route the headers and where exactly are the fitment issues for long or short headers? I am assuming he intends to go straight down and then back. 2. Is this an "untuned" design. I am more interested in increased airflow than tuning. Tuning short tube headers would produce peaks in the high end and I am looking for low end (long tube). Would these headers provide the gains you mentioned for most of the RPM range? 3. Is the high cost a result of manufacturing or design? After you have validated the prototypes you could probably have them built elsewhere in quantity for much less. 4. What is needed to start the project and what kind of a time frame are we looking at? Sorry for the long post, but I am quite interested in putting the talk and opinions aside and finally seeing something done. Let me know how I can be of assistance. Chris

08-03-02, 10:13 PM	#15 (permalink)
E K Junior Mint Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: SGV & SouthBay Posts: 640 Car 1: 91 Legend, 03 G35 iTrader: (0)	DV8, If I put up X amount of $$ now, would I get X amout off the total price of the headers once complete? I can put up $1000 right now (only through check though). Email me if you want to talk. __________________ 91 Acura Legend Sedan LS 173 HP/180 torque 03.5 Infiniti G35 Coupe 5AT for sale 06 Infiniti Athens Blue G35 Coupe 6MT

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