DIY: 3.2L to 3.5L engine swap (+ Type II Swap, Hybrid, and JDM Information) - Page 6

**Mike Diaz** · 02-07-07, 11:25 AM

You know what I didn't do? I did everything that you did, except for filling in the top so it would be smooth. What did you use?

I don't care what anybody thinks about my engine or my car, I know it's a fucking blast to drive, and a lot better than any 3.2L out there.

*Dv8* · 02-07-07, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Diaz

You know what I didn't do? I did everything that you did, except for filling in the top so it would be smooth. What did you use.

I don't care what anybody thinks about my engine or my car, I know it's a fucking blast to drive, and a lot better than any 3.2L out there.

Funny, I just pm'ed you. Marine epoxy.

~Dv8

**Mike Diaz** · 02-07-07, 11:32 AM

I'll have to grab some. My manifold is out and on the bench.

This will be the third set of intake plenum gaskets I bought in the past 6 months. The local Acura parts guy is going to think I'm an idiot.

*Dv8* · 02-07-07, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Diaz

I'll have to grab some. My manifold is out and on the bench.

This will be the third set of intake plenum gaskets I bought in the past 6 months. The local Acura parts guy is going to think I'm an idiot.

Take pics of your progress and pack that epoxy good. Those gaskets hardly go bad, cant you reuse?

~Dv8

**Mike Diaz** · 02-07-07, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dv8

Take pics of your progress and pack that epoxy good. Those gaskets hardly go bad, cant you reuse?

~Dv8

I just installed them 5 months ago. I hope they come apart without a problem. The OEM ones always tear.

swift · 02-07-07, 08:27 PM

your intake is of very poor design...why??

Have you ever heard of Air frequencies or ...mmm...wording...like shock waves..

Anyways think of your valves going up and down at 7k and if you have no seperation from bank to bank one intake runner may get more or less air etc.

Even the machinist who did my flanges brought up how i would build in a sepration plate(divider) before i told him....and he is a normal machinist!!

SO that sepration you cut out and filled in was there for a reason per HONDA engineers.

I was more concerned with it not lining properly up and you had to add weld etc......that is what i was giving you grief about originally. No worries you still have one of the best legends out there for now.

*Dv8* · 02-08-07, 01:38 AM

Frequencies? please were not building indy cars here. Where did you pull that one from, Back to the Future? Your going to have to do better than that to sidetrack me Ben. More air with ample fuel and spark makes for more power,plain and simple. Smooth delivery of air is great but i didnt disturb any of that, i just opened it up. Ill let the guys squeezing every ounce of power from their motors unders strict competition worry about engine harmonics, it really doesnt apply here to that degree.
Chris's intake manifold along with Gary Depriest was/is a chamber style with runners. I didnt modifiy the runners length, thats where the real mathmatical changes are. Maybe Tnelson will chime in.

I recently checked my intake manifold and where it sat on the head in relation to the heads ports when swapping out my injectors for bigger ones. Its been bothering me that i felt like it was not lined up. Shame on me for having doubted the skills of my machinest, even though they were wideded they still fit stock port to port. The head intake ports were radiused to match and I didnt even know.
Good luck buddy, youve been talking/typing for years.

~Dv8

Quote:

Originally Posted by swift

your intake is of very poor design...why??

Have you ever heard of Air frequencies or ...mmm...wording...like shock waves..

Anyways think of your valves going up and down at 7k and if you have no seperation from bank to bank one intake runner may get more or less air etc.

Even the machinist who did my flanges brought up how i would build in a sepration plate(divider) before i told him....and he is a normal machinist!!

SO that sepration you cut out and filled in was there for a reason per HONDA engineers.

I was more concerned with it not lining properly up and you had to add weld etc......that is what i was giving you grief about originally. No worries you still have one of the best legends out there for now.

Telion · 02-08-07, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dv8

Funny, I just pm'ed you. Marine epoxy.

~Dv8

Just curious, since I am sure you did your homework leading you to something this abstract, Why Marine epoxy instead of say JB Weld or some other high temp epoxy?

EDIT:
Sorry i hit edit on accident

sr5guy · 02-08-07, 02:23 AM

I just had some questions, comments and opinions for my own benefit.

I don't design or engineer manifolds, so I am by no means an expert. I agree that frequencies are not a critical thing with our engines. I don't believe that DV8's manifold is a bad design, but maybe it is not 100% suited for his desired goals. I don't understand why you chose the RL manifold over the Type II. The RL manifold is engineered for low end torque, which you said that you have too much of. The type II manifold and top end is engineered for high end power. Forgive me if you already explained this in another thread.

The "partition" is something that was engineered in with the VIS system. Obviously it wouldn't be possible to make one large flap that covers the entire span of the intake manifold. Check out the design of the G1's VIS, along with other VIS systems - Toyota's TVIS, Mazda's VLIM, etc - they use individual butterflys - THATS a restriction. The engineers of the G2's manifold made a compromise with the 2 large second stage butterflys and smaller first stage butterflys. The large flaps are separated by this "partition" Since DV8 eliminated the VIS system, this separation is no longer functioning and therefore not necessary.

What was your reasoning for filling in the manifold? I remember in one of Buzzards posts explaining the reasoning behind his runners protruding into the intake was so that air flowed to each cylinder equally.

Do you have before and after dyno's of the manifold swap ALONE, or did you do other modifications at the same time?

Swift, your heart is in the right place and I'd love to see you accomplish your goals. Instead of whipping out your e-penis and making accusations, why don't you try asking some questions and stating opinions? Collaboration, not competition, will help you achieve your goals on this forum.

-Matt

tnelson · 02-08-07, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swift

your intake is of very poor design...why??

Have you ever heard of Air frequencies or ...mmm...wording...like shock waves..

Anyways think of your valves going up and down at 7k and if you have no seperation from bank to bank one intake runner may get more or less air etc.

Even the machinist who did my flanges brought up how i would build in a sepration plate(divider) before i told him....and he is a normal machinist!!

SO that sepration you cut out and filled in was there for a reason per HONDA engineers.

I was more concerned with it not lining properly up and you had to add weld etc......that is what i was giving you grief about originally. No worries you still have one of the best legends out there for now.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about? Usually you have more problems with pulses in exhaust, not in the intake manifold, but it does happen. If you want a divider plate, thats fine, and there are plenty of reasons for that. USUALLY when you put a divider plate in is when you have an odd firing order, where the legend is sequential. But thats neither here nor there. The reason christian can get away with it, is because of hte manifold design. The runners are offset. The biggest problem with an intake manifold hollowed out like that is that as the valves shut, they create pressure and create pressure headed back up the runner. Well, in this case, the way the runners are offset, and the steep angle of the runner, doesnt create as much of a problem. Look at the inside again. Seriously man. Going to auto mechanic school doesnt put you anywhere near engineering levels. You talk like you have it all figured out, but im tellin you man, him hollowing out that manifold has done more for his engine than alot of his other mods. Now a properly built manifold custom manifold could be done that could help even more, but he doesnt want to do that right now.

BTW swift, what volume do you want for the runners and the plenum? Any idea? And how do those numbers need to change if you put a divider in the middle? This should be an easy question, since you seem to have it all figured out.

And what runner length do you want for an N/A car and for a turbo, or a supercharged car? any ideas. again, easy questions. Lets get some answers. Any ideas?

The real problem with a legend intake manifold is in runner length. Thats what really restricts power. His hollowing it out essentially shortens the runners, and shifts the power band up, and allows him to make the same tq at higher revs, thus creating more HP for the same tq. (he also should put something in the bottom to reduce the plenum size, but for now, he is doing fine, the elimination of the VIS system helped him out on that.) If he went with a full custom setup, he could change where the powerband is applied even more, and get even more top end out of it. That would help him have a little less wheelspin off the line, and more power up top, and he could launch higher in the revs. He will get there eventually, but I dont know his FI plans.

**Mike Diaz** · 02-08-07, 08:14 AM

Until custom intake manifolds are built for the 3.5 setup, the RL intake manifold is what most of us are going to use. We're making the best of it by removing the VIS and smoothing out any obstructions in the way. Simply gutting it helped out a lot with my air flow, and that's where I'm lacking. My air/fuel ratio dips down into 11:1 on my dyno. That's with a stock Legend ECU.

Ben, attacking somebody's design because some machinist told you that the way he does it is better is just stupid. He knows nothing about the Legend engine and every engine has different characteristics. I'd like to see what you have to say in response to Tyler's questions.

Not to be a dick, but you haven't really proven anything, and you haven't done anything innovative so far. You really don't have the right to be calling out anybody.

*Dv8* · 02-08-07, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telion

Just curious, since I am sure you did your homework leading you to something this abstract, Why Marine epoxy instead of say JB Weld or some other high temp epoxy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr5guy

I just had some questions, comments and opinions for my own benefit.

I don't design or engineer manifolds, so I am by no means an expert. I agree that frequencies are not a critical thing with our engines. I don't believe that DV8's manifold is a bad design, but maybe it is not 100% suited for his desired goals. I don't understand why you chose the RL manifold over the Type II. The RL manifold is engineered for low end torque, which you said that you have too much of. The type II manifold and top end is engineered for high end power. Forgive me if you already explained this in another thread.

The "partition" is something that was engineered in with the VIS system. Obviously it wouldn't be possible to make one large flap that covers the entire span of the intake manifold. Check out the design of the G1's VIS, along with other VIS systems - Toyota's TVIS, Mazda's VLIM, etc - they use individual butterflys - THATS a restriction. The engineers of the G2's manifold made a compromise with the 2 large second stage butterflys and smaller first stage butterflys. The large flaps are separated by this "partition" Since DV8 eliminated the VIS system, this separation is no longer functioning and therefore not necessary.

What was your reasoning for filling in the manifold? I remember in one of Buzzards posts explaining the reasoning behind his runners protruding into the intake was so that air flowed to each cylinder equally.

Do you have before and after dyno's of the manifold swap ALONE, or did you do other modifications at the same time?

Swift, your heart is in the right place and I'd love to see you accomplish your goals. Instead of whipping out your e-penis and making accusations, why don't you try asking some questions and stating opinions? Collaboration, not competition, will help you achieve your goals on this forum.

-Matt

Gentlemen,

The reason why I chose marine epoxy was mainly for it ability to withstand waters and oils. The top of the I. manifold doesnt get very hot even on the hottest of days. But as some of you have noticed our intake manifolds collect plenty of oil and soot. JB weld wasn’t nearly as easy to smooth over (smell-gag), but could have been used as well. Bonding strength of either is beyond what’s needed as long as it’s applied evenly and without gaps.
The reason why I wanted the valleys of the manifold made flush with the runner openings is simply that I wanted all runners to get close to the same amount of air and to promote smoother air velocity.
On the dyno with my TYPE II man W/vis I remember disconnecting #8 & #2 vacuum lines, I would show a loss of 2 TQ peak. I don’t remember anything else since it was nearly 6 years back. However before my latest revisions-what led me to do what I did to the manifold was when I did the same test on the dyno to the RL manifold W/vis on the 3.5 engine. The peak WHP jumped 4WHP along with 3 from TQ. The power band gained as much as 7whp and 5LBFT. These 3.5's are starved for air in and exhaust out and the Web cams proved that with my headers or even OBX's. When I went back to the dyno, I had headers the Spec lightened flywheel and some other things along with the manifold so I couldn’t really single anything out.
As for why I chose the RL man.
At the time looking at both my P&Ped TYPE II and The stock RL's manifold, I checked its internal volume with water and a measuring cup, the Type II was bigger by a small margin-half a cup or so. Forgive me it’s been years. However the way the runners protrude into the manifold is very clean and with a bit more polishing blew away the style found on the TYPE II. It doesn’t take much to see that a runner shaped like an individual TB was going to promote better air velocity. Since I was already factoring gutting the manifold, I wanted all the smooth speed I could get. Maybe in the RL's man stock design it promoted low-end TQ, but I used my original type II gutted mid plate and bottom pan on my man. Either way besides the way the upper plenum is cast the man's are almost identical everywhere else.
Maybe my wheel power doesn’t represent the peak power I should have, but with where my power falls in my Legends power band is something to take into comparisons with newer more advanced 3.5's

Would I like custom manifold, custom pistons, turbo kits, SC’s? Of course! Will I spend a couple of G's to have them mathematically calculated and made? Absolutely not!
Last year we received cams and headers for the first time. Lots more people are seeing 200+ to the wheels for the first time in 16 years. There’s one turbo guy we know of that make mediocre power but falls short because of proper tuning, same as the one person with a vortec SC.
I believe in taking everything in stride and utilizing what we have, it will save us time, money and give us all a better understanding of what’s next. This is why I support the ECU efforts and am trying myself to get the EMS to be a viable option in the future, because with out proper managment there is no future.

~Dv8

swift · 02-08-07, 08:32 PM

okay seriously I whipped out my "e-penis" after a comment...such as "poor intake manifold" or something to that effect and DV8 gets all pissed.
Its my own opinion but if he would care to comment on how his N/A numbers were only slightly higher then kenso 's type 2 conversion...i would love to hear it. Kenso has a stock muffler, stock exhaust manifolds, an original type 1 block.

I cut out around 4in" of the stock manifold and have roughly 2in runners. The fastest NSX with over 1000hp had 2in runners in a very small manifold which will be the full custom one i am rplan on replicating(not this prototype). A few years ago on a stock type 2 removing VIS showed loss of power so why did Diaz do it on a stock RL....too much torque??

I am putting in a divider "plate" ;not taking up a large amount of space there. I have done my fair of research not to do things "half-assed"...which by the way I am purposely doing on certain things such as the exhaust considering the fact Kenso has stock manifolds and look at his N/A power. very nice.

I found out about the 05' pistons more than a year ago....so seriously ...how much more do you think i have found out and still kept my mouth such about. I only came forward about what I am doing and found out to hel

02-07-07, 11:25 AM	#76 (permalink)
Mike Diaz WHAAAAAH! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N Canton, Ohio Posts: 10,983 Car 1: 3.5L 1991 LS Coupe 5 Spd Blk/Blk Car 2: 1994 Civic EG Hatch Car 3: 03 Honda TRX400EX iTrader: (2)	You know what I didn't do? I did everything that you did, except for filling in the top so it would be smooth. What did you use? I don't care what anybody thinks about my engine or my car, I know it's a fucking blast to drive, and a lot better than any 3.2L out there. __________________ 2nd Gen FAQ \| Newbie FAQ \| Bleeding Coolant DIY \| Manual Trans Flush DIY 3.5L DIY \| Crank-No Start Diagnosis \| How I built My Legend

02-07-07, 11:32 AM	#78 (permalink)
Mike Diaz WHAAAAAH! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N Canton, Ohio Posts: 10,983 Car 1: 3.5L 1991 LS Coupe 5 Spd Blk/Blk Car 2: 1994 Civic EG Hatch Car 3: 03 Honda TRX400EX iTrader: (2)	I'll have to grab some. My manifold is out and on the bench. This will be the third set of intake plenum gaskets I bought in the past 6 months. The local Acura parts guy is going to think I'm an idiot. __________________ 2nd Gen FAQ \| Newbie FAQ \| Bleeding Coolant DIY \| Manual Trans Flush DIY 3.5L DIY \| Crank-No Start Diagnosis \| How I built My Legend

02-08-07, 08:14 AM	#86 (permalink)
Mike Diaz WHAAAAAH! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N Canton, Ohio Posts: 10,983 Car 1: 3.5L 1991 LS Coupe 5 Spd Blk/Blk Car 2: 1994 Civic EG Hatch Car 3: 03 Honda TRX400EX iTrader: (2)	Until custom intake manifolds are built for the 3.5 setup, the RL intake manifold is what most of us are going to use. We're making the best of it by removing the VIS and smoothing out any obstructions in the way. Simply gutting it helped out a lot with my air flow, and that's where I'm lacking. My air/fuel ratio dips down into 11:1 on my dyno. That's with a stock Legend ECU. Ben, attacking somebody's design because some machinist told you that the way he does it is better is just stupid. He knows nothing about the Legend engine and every engine has different characteristics. I'd like to see what you have to say in response to Tyler's questions. Not to be a dick, but you haven't really proven anything, and you haven't done anything innovative so far. You really don't have the right to be calling out anybody. __________________ 2nd Gen FAQ \| Newbie FAQ \| Bleeding Coolant DIY \| Manual Trans Flush DIY 3.5L DIY \| Crank-No Start Diagnosis \| How I built My Legend Last edited by Mike Diaz : 02-08-07 at 08:31 AM.

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02-07-07, 08:27 PM	#81 (permalink)
swift Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Northern,WI/Chicago,IL Posts: 4,291 Car 1: 92' legend coupe 5spd Car 2: 94' coupe auto Car 3: 91' Smacura iTrader: (8)	your intake is of very poor design...why?? Have you ever heard of Air frequencies or ...mmm...wording...like shock waves.. Anyways think of your valves going up and down at 7k and if you have no seperation from bank to bank one intake runner may get more or less air etc. Even the machinist who did my flanges brought up how i would build in a sepration plate(divider) before i told him....and he is a normal machinist!! SO that sepration you cut out and filled in was there for a reason per HONDA engineers. I was more concerned with it not lining properly up and you had to add weld etc......that is what i was giving you grief about originally. No worries you still have one of the best legends out there for now.