Engine rebuild is done, need advice

NickD · 12-16-02, 01:15 PM

Well... I finished my 4 month long project to rebuild my engine. I got the copper headgaskets in there, a very aggressive porting and polishing job, type II cams/valves/springs in my Type I heads, and a Type II intake.

The engine looks beautiful, I will post pictures later. She also started right up on the first try.

However after some time I started to experience some serious problems. Heavy white smoke from the exhaust, difficulty starting, difficulty maintaining idle and overheating. All this accompanied by a terrible smell.

I was hoping the overheating was due to excessive air in the cooling system that was dry for 4 months and the erradic idle and difficulty starting was due to 4 month old gasoline in the tank. Unfortunantly I was wrong.

I pulled the sparkplugs out last night. Cylinders 1 and 5 are both flooded with anti-freeze. My anti-freeze has oil and fuel in it and there is some water in my oil as well.

The copper headgaskets were made perfectly. However I opted to reuse the stock gasket inserts from the stock gaskets. These little inserts fit into the headgasket to control the flow of oil to the heads. I believe these slips loose and are wedged between the gasket and block or the gasket and the head causing the leak I am seeing.

This leak is quite massive, as I took the radiator cap off with no pressure in the system and had my father crank it. Anti-freeze shot a good 5 feet into the air, hitting the hood and coving me and the engine in it. Luckily I had just topped it off so the anti-freeze that was in there was maybe only 100 degrees so I didn't get burned.

So this weekend I have to pull apart the whole engine again to determine and hopefully fix this problem.

Can anyone else offer any speculations to my problem(s)? The heads are good but I could guess a crack in the block. However the amount of pressure getting intot the cooling system was way more than a crack could allow.

Is it possible that the anti-freeze that seeped into the cylinders caused hydrolock at startup? I don't think this is the case as it never started right away when this happened and if hydrolock was going to happen I believe the starter motor would not have been able to crank the engine.

Cylinder #5 cotained about 1/4" of anyti freeze in it and cylinder #1 had only a little in it. Additionally all the other cylinders appeared to have quite a bit of carbon buildup on them, however it was hard to tell peering down that tiny spark plug hole.

*Dv8* · 12-16-02, 02:05 PM

i dont know were to start youve changed to type II peices instead of the whole thing. the problem can start from there. what do u think about the headgasket? is it identical to a stock
one?

its hard to tell, let us know what you find.

~Hybrid

Dave C ver2.0 · 12-16-02, 02:32 PM

That sux Nick. Are the Type I and II valve spring heights the same? Do the rocker arms have the same P/N? Did you use new head bolts?

Since it ran OK to start I would thinkit wasn't an assembly error. Sounds more like a part compatability issue. The only way to know for sure is to take her apart again (very slowly and carefully, looking at every single piece as it comes off).

Good luck.

E K · 12-16-02, 04:15 PM

That totally sux. We know that you've put so much work in. Is it possible the head gaskets aren't sealing as well as they should?

NickD · 12-16-02, 04:51 PM

Before putting the copper headgaskets on I matched them up to the stock gaskets and they were identicle.

DaveC: The spring heights I believe are the same but the rates are different on the intake springs only. I replaced those with Type II springs. Additionally I took an entire Type II rocker arm assembly and bolted it up.

E.K.: Unless my block is badly warped, which I checked with a straight edge and it seemed ok, they should be sealing good. When I installed them I used this FelPro gasket sealer. It's pretty much like contact cement in a can designed for high temperatures and liquids. That should have helped seal everything into place. It was quite strong. I used that stuff to hold this little gaskets in place.

Another indication that it may have been those smaller gasket inserts is for the first 5 minutes the cams and rockers were ticking so loud you couldn't hold a conversation. Now I had prelubed everything so I didn't do any damage but it took a good 5 minutes to get them to quite down, as if the oil may have been blocked by those gaskets and then they were shoved otu of the way. I turned the engine off shortly after that which would have prevented me from finding my anti-freeze problem.

The car is at my parents place right now, I can't work on it till the weekend. I am dying to find out what happened...

2Badd4u · 12-16-02, 08:38 PM

It sounds alot like a head gasket to me guys. If you didn't have the block or heads shaved some to flatten them first, copper will not give enough to seal even a slight warp. Not even dead soft copper. It seals better for cast iron blocks really. Why was it that you went with the copper again instead of factory?

Nate R. · 12-16-02, 08:48 PM

I have been told on numerous occasions that these engines can not be rebuilt! Can you only do it yourself or are their shops out there that can do it? I wonder what it would cost since my 92 is VERY close to 180K, I just LOVE my car and dont even want to trade it for another legend. I would rather pay a car payment on an engine rebuild, than on another car. Good LUCK!

2Badd4u · 12-16-02, 08:48 PM

I'm not sure but you said you used the type II intake with the type I heads maybe you got another gasket mismatch there. Anywhere water passes through the block by a gasket is a potential leak. Honda uses very well engineered gaskets. You should never have problems with leaks other then warps, cracks or over torques. By the way a block crack wouldn't yeild water in the cylinder only in the oil, sleaves rarely crack and seep. unless way over bored.

LegendC · 12-16-02, 10:45 PM

Don't be alarmed by the loud cams and valves. Mine sounded exacly like that following my rebuild. They are self adjusting and that process is what you hear as they quiet down. Should not take more than a couple days of driving for any sounds to die down.

Cap · 12-16-02, 10:48 PM

NickD,

I feel for you bud.

It sounds to me like you are getting combustion gas into the cooling system. This might not be a head gasket. It might be a pin-hole leak from the exhaust port to a water jacket. One of the guys on the 3Geez forum talks about hitting water several times while learning to port and polish Honda heads.

I'd recommend draining the coolant, and then use an air compressor to pressurize the cooling system with air. Take the exhaust headers off, and listen at the exhaust ports for air hissing out. Spray soapy water to see if you get bubbles.

Then, you can remove the spark plugs, and listen at the spark plug holes. That will tell you if you have a leaky head gasket.

Be careful when you use air pressure to check for leaks... If you pressurize the cylinders, then the crank will turn. If you happen to have your fingers near a fan belt, you might lose them.

Cap

NickD · 12-19-02, 02:37 PM

Hey guys, thanks for your input.

2Badd4u: I had the heads at a machine shop to be milled, pressure tested and magnufluxed and they were fine. I left the block in the engine bay so I had to check for warpage myself on that. I used a straight edge and a flashlight to determine if there was any warpage and it all looked good.

I went to copper because this is the third set of headgaskets going on the car. They keep blowing and in the same spot.

Nate R.: The Legend engine can defiently be rebuilt. I am not the first to do it. In fact, 2Badd4u's friend completely rebuilt his, I didn't touch my block. I had success with my first rebuild but my headgasket blew prematurely at 60,000 miles. I believe this is due to the fact that I re-used the old headbolts, a mistake on my part.

Anyway, this Sat/Sun I will start pulling her back apart again. I'll post my results here.

banel · 12-19-02, 08:02 PM

Good luck and all our hearts are with you and if you have any question whike working on it, call me at my cell. We'll try to help any kind of way we can

g-man · 12-20-02, 05:43 PM

Nick, hats off to you bro.

What you did took a lot of patience.

**B+O** · 12-21-02, 09:39 AM

thats tight..uh that over port theory seems like it might hold a bit of water

sorry

. but you should check the port job.

Reno5658 · 12-21-02, 12:23 PM

I went ahead and asked my instructor about the problem and what he told me was that copper headgaskets are NOT suitable with our engines since we have a cast iron block and aluminum heads (correct me if i'm wrong). Two different metals with different heating properties

12-16-02, 01:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
NickD Bk F*er Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lebanon, NJ Posts: 2,633 Car 1: 1991 Frost White L Sedan Car 2: 1999 BMW 328i 5speed iTrader: (0)	Engine rebuild is done, need advice Well... I finished my 4 month long project to rebuild my engine. I got the copper headgaskets in there, a very aggressive porting and polishing job, type II cams/valves/springs in my Type I heads, and a Type II intake. The engine looks beautiful, I will post pictures later. She also started right up on the first try. However after some time I started to experience some serious problems. Heavy white smoke from the exhaust, difficulty starting, difficulty maintaining idle and overheating. All this accompanied by a terrible smell. I was hoping the overheating was due to excessive air in the cooling system that was dry for 4 months and the erradic idle and difficulty starting was due to 4 month old gasoline in the tank. Unfortunantly I was wrong. I pulled the sparkplugs out last night. Cylinders 1 and 5 are both flooded with anti-freeze. My anti-freeze has oil and fuel in it and there is some water in my oil as well. The copper headgaskets were made perfectly. However I opted to reuse the stock gasket inserts from the stock gaskets. These little inserts fit into the headgasket to control the flow of oil to the heads. I believe these slips loose and are wedged between the gasket and block or the gasket and the head causing the leak I am seeing. This leak is quite massive, as I took the radiator cap off with no pressure in the system and had my father crank it. Anti-freeze shot a good 5 feet into the air, hitting the hood and coving me and the engine in it. Luckily I had just topped it off so the anti-freeze that was in there was maybe only 100 degrees so I didn't get burned. So this weekend I have to pull apart the whole engine again to determine and hopefully fix this problem. Can anyone else offer any speculations to my problem(s)? The heads are good but I could guess a crack in the block. However the amount of pressure getting intot the cooling system was way more than a crack could allow. Is it possible that the anti-freeze that seeped into the cylinders caused hydrolock at startup? I don't think this is the case as it never started right away when this happened and if hydrolock was going to happen I believe the starter motor would not have been able to crank the engine. Cylinder #5 cotained about 1/4" of anyti freeze in it and cylinder #1 had only a little in it. Additionally all the other cylinders appeared to have quite a bit of carbon buildup on them, however it was hard to tell peering down that tiny spark plug hole. __________________ 1991 Legend L Hybrid (gallery) 1989 Legend L 5speed (totaled) 1999 BMW 328i 5 speed http://demandred.dyndns.org/sig-small.jpg http://demandred.dyndns.org/bmw-small-sig.png

12-16-02, 02:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
Dv8 Get sucked in... Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: CA Posts: 4,729 Car 1: 91' 3.5lt Extreme DV8ED Hybrid 6spd Car 2: 03' G35c Blk on Blk Car 3: 92'Yukon/06'Trailer iTrader: (11)	i dont know were to start youve changed to type II peices instead of the whole thing. the problem can start from there. what do u think about the headgasket? is it identical to a stock one? its hard to tell, let us know what you find. ~Hybrid __________________ AEM EMS Powered. 9 yrs and counting. Results, Where are yours? 12.953@107.865MPH 95 deg. Jun. 07' 3.5 6spd-#55 jet Nitrous 316WHP@5500RPM 345Lb-ft@4100RPM NOS 06-07'N/A 234WHP@5700RPM 229lb-ft@4600RPM 06-07' 13.782@99.135MPH N/A 95 deg. Jun 07' 03' G35c Auto Vortech Supercharged pshhhh 14.3@96MPH-Stock 8 page spread Honda Tuning September 06' issue No Phone or Instant message, PM or Email only. Respect that! My Legends Website www.2slik4u.com

12-16-02, 02:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
Dave C ver2.0 rh eller Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Rockville Md Posts: 1,943 Car 1: 92 L sedan and 88 LS sedan (wifes) iTrader: (1)	That sux Nick. Are the Type I and II valve spring heights the same? Do the rocker arms have the same P/N? Did you use new head bolts? Since it ran OK to start I would thinkit wasn't an assembly error. Sounds more like a part compatability issue. The only way to know for sure is to take her apart again (very slowly and carefully, looking at every single piece as it comes off). Good luck. __________________ Started rebuilding IC engines in 1968 at the US Merchant Marine Academy. Don't think you know more than me about auto/IC/control systems unless you can document your education.

12-16-02, 04:15 PM	#4 (permalink)
E K Junior Mint Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: SGV & SouthBay Posts: 640 Car 1: 91 Legend, 03 G35 iTrader: (0)	That totally sux. We know that you've put so much work in. Is it possible the head gaskets aren't sealing as well as they should? __________________ 91 Acura Legend Sedan LS 173 HP/180 torque 03.5 Infiniti G35 Coupe 5AT for sale 06 Infiniti Athens Blue G35 Coupe 6MT

12-16-02, 04:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
NickD Bk F*er Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lebanon, NJ Posts: 2,633 Car 1: 1991 Frost White L Sedan Car 2: 1999 BMW 328i 5speed iTrader: (0)	Before putting the copper headgaskets on I matched them up to the stock gaskets and they were identicle. DaveC: The spring heights I believe are the same but the rates are different on the intake springs only. I replaced those with Type II springs. Additionally I took an entire Type II rocker arm assembly and bolted it up. E.K.: Unless my block is badly warped, which I checked with a straight edge and it seemed ok, they should be sealing good. When I installed them I used this FelPro gasket sealer. It's pretty much like contact cement in a can designed for high temperatures and liquids. That should have helped seal everything into place. It was quite strong. I used that stuff to hold this little gaskets in place. Another indication that it may have been those smaller gasket inserts is for the first 5 minutes the cams and rockers were ticking so loud you couldn't hold a conversation. Now I had prelubed everything so I didn't do any damage but it took a good 5 minutes to get them to quite down, as if the oil may have been blocked by those gaskets and then they were shoved otu of the way. I turned the engine off shortly after that which would have prevented me from finding my anti-freeze problem. The car is at my parents place right now, I can't work on it till the weekend. I am dying to find out what happened... __________________ 1991 Legend L Hybrid (gallery) 1989 Legend L 5speed (totaled) 1999 BMW 328i 5 speed http://demandred.dyndns.org/sig-small.jpg http://demandred.dyndns.org/bmw-small-sig.png

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12-16-02, 08:38 PM	#6 (permalink)
2Badd4u Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: cincinnati Posts: 12 Car 1: 1992 coupe iTrader: (0)	Headgaskets dudes!!!!! It sounds alot like a head gasket to me guys. If you didn't have the block or heads shaved some to flatten them first, copper will not give enough to seal even a slight warp. Not even dead soft copper. It seals better for cast iron blocks really. Why was it that you went with the copper again instead of factory?

12-16-02, 08:48 PM	#7 (permalink)
Nate R. wheres da **** a*? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 14 Car 1: 1992 Seattle Silver LSCOUPE iTrader: (0)	bad engines to rebuild??? I have been told on numerous occasions that these engines can not be rebuilt! Can you only do it yourself or are their shops out there that can do it? I wonder what it would cost since my 92 is VERY close to 180K, I just LOVE my car and dont even want to trade it for another legend. I would rather pay a car payment on an engine rebuild, than on another car. Good LUCK!

12-16-02, 08:48 PM	#8 (permalink)
2Badd4u Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: cincinnati Posts: 12 Car 1: 1992 coupe iTrader: (0)	Thought of somthing else! I'm not sure but you said you used the type II intake with the type I heads maybe you got another gasket mismatch there. Anywhere water passes through the block by a gasket is a potential leak. Honda uses very well engineered gaskets. You should never have problems with leaks other then warps, cracks or over torques. By the way a block crack wouldn't yeild water in the cylinder only in the oil, sleaves rarely crack and seep. unless way over bored.

12-16-02, 10:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
LegendC Symply Legendary Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Fife, WA Posts: 600 Car 1: 1994 LS Coupe (Modded) iTrader: (0)	Don't be alarmed by the loud cams and valves. Mine sounded exacly like that following my rebuild. They are self adjusting and that process is what you hear as they quiet down. Should not take more than a couple days of driving for any sounds to die down.

12-16-02, 10:48 PM	#10 (permalink)
Cap Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fort Collins, CO Posts: 150 Car 1: '92 LS Coupe iTrader: (0)	NickD, I feel for you bud. It sounds to me like you are getting combustion gas into the cooling system. This might not be a head gasket. It might be a pin-hole leak from the exhaust port to a water jacket. One of the guys on the 3Geez forum talks about hitting water several times while learning to port and polish Honda heads. I'd recommend draining the coolant, and then use an air compressor to pressurize the cooling system with air. Take the exhaust headers off, and listen at the exhaust ports for air hissing out. Spray soapy water to see if you get bubbles. Then, you can remove the spark plugs, and listen at the spark plug holes. That will tell you if you have a leaky head gasket. Be careful when you use air pressure to check for leaks... If you pressurize the cylinders, then the crank will turn. If you happen to have your fingers near a fan belt, you might lose them. Cap Last edited by Cap : 12-17-02 at 01:22 AM.

12-19-02, 02:37 PM	#11 (permalink)
NickD Bk F*er Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lebanon, NJ Posts: 2,633 Car 1: 1991 Frost White L Sedan Car 2: 1999 BMW 328i 5speed iTrader: (0)	Hey guys, thanks for your input. 2Badd4u: I had the heads at a machine shop to be milled, pressure tested and magnufluxed and they were fine. I left the block in the engine bay so I had to check for warpage myself on that. I used a straight edge and a flashlight to determine if there was any warpage and it all looked good. I went to copper because this is the third set of headgaskets going on the car. They keep blowing and in the same spot. Nate R.: The Legend engine can defiently be rebuilt. I am not the first to do it. In fact, 2Badd4u's friend completely rebuilt his, I didn't touch my block. I had success with my first rebuild but my headgasket blew prematurely at 60,000 miles. I believe this is due to the fact that I re-used the old headbolts, a mistake on my part. Anyway, this Sat/Sun I will start pulling her back apart again. I'll post my results here. __________________ 1991 Legend L Hybrid (gallery) 1989 Legend L 5speed (totaled) 1999 BMW 328i 5 speed http://demandred.dyndns.org/sig-small.jpg http://demandred.dyndns.org/bmw-small-sig.png

12-19-02, 08:02 PM	#12 (permalink)
banel Legendary Legendz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 198 iTrader: (0)	Good luck and all our hearts are with you and if you have any question whike working on it, call me at my cell. We'll try to help any kind of way we can __________________ Thank you, Baidy Ba Legendary Legendz CC Regional Officer, North Georgia and Carolinas www.legendarylegendz.com banel@legendarylegendz.com http://www.legendarylegendz.com/files/banel_cards.jpg

12-20-02, 05:43 PM	#13 (permalink)
g-man * H * G Z , * N * . Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 848 Car 1: 1997 3.5 RL iTrader: (0)	Nick, hats off to you bro. What you did took a lot of patience. __________________ http://www.neworderonline.com/images/forum/smoker.gif 2nd Generation FAQ...Click here G's RL pics.....

12-21-02, 09:39 AM	#14 (permalink)
B+O Das ist mein JAM! Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: VSC Moderator Posts: 12,020 Car 1: why? iTrader: (1)	thats tight..uh that over port theory seems like it might hold a bit of water sorry. but you should check the port job. __________________ "Untainted by Concept of Limitation" -BozzSpeed -Reiko my baby -The MAIN person Thank you Leon. Your words help God said it, and it was so. Forum Rules *flossin,* breakin off the intersection crossin RL'in, ackin a iz-ass on them bosses

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12-21-02, 12:23 PM	#15 (permalink)
Reno5658 E*koden Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Woodbridge, VA / Va Beach, VA Posts: 462 Car 1: 95 M3 iTrader: (0)	I went ahead and asked my instructor about the problem and what he told me was that copper headgaskets are NOT suitable with our engines since we have a cast iron block and aluminum heads (correct me if i'm wrong). Two different metals with different heating properties __________________ http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...8/oaktree3.jpg 95 M3<>3.46LSD<> 00 SUZUKI GSX-R 750<>TOO MUCH TO LIST<>