Engine rebuild is done, need advice - Page 2

theGodfather · 12-21-02, 02:31 PM

I thinik we have an alluminum block.

G

*Dv8* · 12-22-02, 04:10 AM

so nick what was it? are the headgasket the culprits?

~Hybrid

NickD · 12-22-02, 04:23 AM

We do have aluminum blocks.

DV8, I'll find out tomorrow. I had to do some Christmas shopping today and only got about 2 hours to work on my car. I got it mostly apart. I have to pull the exhaust pipes off still and then I can pull the heads. I will be doing that Sunday morning.

AlanJ · 12-22-02, 08:44 AM

My car is in the Garage right now having the Head Gaskets done, I couldnt afford the genuine Honda Gaskets (£760.00 !!) so I went for an aftermarket Kits - still cost a whopping £380.00 !. But the Head Gasket isnt just the Head Gasket, they are loads of other little Gaskets and seals with it - did you fit all those, or just the 2 Head Gaskets? Personally I would never have gone with Copper Gaskets that have been made up by someone. Honda make engines to real fine tolerances, and the Gaskets need to be to the same high tolerances, you can't just look at them and say they are identical, were talking real exact fine tolerances here! But the big thing is you say this is the third time your HG has gone ! You have a serious problem somewhere else, maybe a cracked head caused by overheating.
I feel for you my friend - but I'm afraid your gonna have to do it all over again, and it is a big job, get an original or a good quality after market HG set with all the right bits and pieces, get the head checked for a crack, and get the block checked by an engineer for straightness, get everything checked out ! 1 Head Gasket failure is a nightmare, 2 is a near suicide job - but 3 !!! Man I admire you for still being here and loving your Legend!!

Good luck !

NickD · 12-24-02, 02:38 PM

Well, I tore the whole engine down on Sunday. I took a few pics as well. What appears to be the problem is every cylinder was leaking compression. The gaskets did not seal against the head. I checked again for flatness with a straightedge and a feeler guage and everything is fine.

I contacted KMS about the problem and we are going to look into using a different copper alloy. We'll see what happens.

More here

AlanJ · 12-24-02, 03:37 PM

Nick

Wow ! That is some leakage Nick. This is my advice Nick, Don't go for Copper Gaskets again, it's too much of a risk - you are doing the Research and Development work for these guys - they are the ones who should be testing the Gasket, not you. Ask for a refund (at the least! really they should be charged for the cost of rebuilding the engine again). Just get a Standard Head Gasket set, then you know it is going to work. You are not going to see or feel any real benefit out of Copper HG's Nick, despite what people say. Speak to a real Automobile Engineeer for advice, and I guarantee he will stay 'Stick with the original specification Gaskets'.
You should only fit the Copper ones if they have been thouroghly tested and proven in real life, over hundreds of thousands if miles in a lot of cars - and they haven't!
Remember Nick, Honda know what they are doing, if Copper was best then they would use copper.

Cap · 12-24-02, 09:06 PM

I suggest Corteco gaskets. The latest and best technology.

Cap

theGodfather · 12-24-02, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AlanJ

Remember Nick, Honda know what they are doing, if Copper was best then they would use copper.

I wish I can agree with you on this one but I don't. If Honda knew what they were doing, we wouldn't be experiencing a blown headgasket to begin with. It is a notorious problem with the Legend, a major engineering flaw. Unfortunately also they do not take the liberty of acknowledging this design flaw and make it a recall item

We're hoping that Honda at least would have re-designed the replacement headgaskets that are available to us when we run into this problem.

Copper gaskets are good if you want to run any heavy F.I. or major shots of NOS, or if you are constantly ripping your engine apart and do not want a new head gasket everytime you put it back together.

I wish you luck Nick on resolving this issue with KMS. In a way my poor financial situation helped me by not allowing me to purchase the HG from KMS and expereincing the same problems.

G

sleeprlegendcp · 12-25-02, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theGodfather
In a way my poor financial situation helped me by not allowing me to purchase the HG from KMS and expereincing the same problems.

G

Later!
Lee

FutureX 2001 · 12-26-02, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theGodfather

I wish you luck Nick on resolving this issue with KMS. In a way my poor financial situation helped me by not allowing me to purchase the HG from KMS and expereincing the same problems.

G

Same here, that's the only reason I didn't get those, but if I would have, I would have one heck of a problem right now once the shop would have put the engine back together, what an awful thought.

Nathan_Rd · 12-26-02, 07:09 PM

Hats off to you Nick! Have to admire that perservance and persistence. I guess the good news is that the left bank was unaffected so you're pretty much half-way there man.

2Badd4u · 12-26-02, 09:03 PM

Nick, checking the block with a strait edge and feeler gauge will not give you the precision you need to check for the flatness it takes to seal w/copper. I have built many engines in my day and that check just wont cut it. I know you didn't want to take the motor out of the car but to seal copper both mateing surfaces must be machined flat. Not just look flat!There are a couple of ways to flaten it in the car if it's not too far out. If anti-freeze got into the bearings you must pull it all apart now anyway or it won't last long. Anti-freeze and the material bearings are made of don't mix!

NickD · 12-31-02, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2Badd4u
Nick, checking the block with a strait edge and feeler gauge will not give you the precision you need to check for the flatness it takes to seal w/copper. I have built many engines in my day and that check just wont cut it. I know you didn't want to take the motor out of the car but to seal copper both mateing surfaces must be machined flat. Not just look flat!There are a couple of ways to flaten it in the car if it's not too far out. If anti-freeze got into the bearings you must pull it all apart now anyway or it won't last long. Anti-freeze and the material bearings are made of don't mix!

I was told by a few sources that as long as the copper alloy was right and I coated the copper gaskets properly with the FelPro spray they will seal with the setup I have. After speaking with KMS they agreed that I will most likely require a softer copper alloy.

As far as the anti-freeze in the bearings... There wasn't an excessive amount in the oil but enough to see it in the oil. I can't inspect the main bearings but the cam bearings were fine when I pulled the heads. Then again, I may not have ran the engine long enough to get the bad oil up into the rocker arm assembly.

I am still debating on putting stock gaskets back on

Simply because I can't afford to keep tearing down the engine.

Texan1983 · 12-31-02, 01:42 PM

hey guys on the stock head gaskets, it's not an enginereing problem. they were not assembled correct at the factory, they get lazy and don't torque the heads down right. ford has the same problem every engine they build now, a head gasket blows within 70,000 miles. i have worked as a tech for Ford and honda dealers. i would use the stock head gaskets, just torque them right.

Dave C ver2.0 · 12-31-02, 01:58 PM

As many times as those heads have been off I'd consider replaceing all the bolts/studs with new.

12-21-02, 02:31 PM	#16 (permalink)
theGodfather "the Don" Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Toronto, ON, CANADA Posts: 1,002 Car 1: 1995 Carbon Black Metallic 6-Speed Coupe iTrader: (2)	I thinik we have an alluminum block. G __________________ 1995 Legend Coupe 6-speed Carbon Black Metallic 208 WHP @ 6250 RPM 189 FT/LB @ 5250 RPM MUSTANG Dyno 260,000mi and counting WeaponR Secret Weapon Intake - Cold Air Box - Custom 2.5" stainless exhaust system - Remus Rev3 Universal muffler -SPEC Stage II clutch - 5speed flywheel - SR5GUY Chip - APEXi S-AFC - Pullies - MLS copy strut bar - Short Shifter -18" ICON W65 Wheels - KONI reds/Ground Controls - Slotted Brembo Rotors - SS Brake lines - Walbro 255 -ICE

12-22-02, 04:10 AM	#17 (permalink)
Dv8 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: CA Posts: 4,886 Car 1: 91' 3.5lt Extreme DV8ED Hybrid 6spd Car 2: 03' G35c Blk on Blk Car 3: 92'Yukon/06'Trailer iTrader: (11)	so nick what was it? are the headgasket the culprits? ~Hybrid __________________ AEM EMS Powered. 9 yrs and counting. Results, Where are yours? 12.953@107.865MPH 95 deg. Jun. 07' 3.5 6spd-#55 jet Nitrous 316WHP@5500RPM 345Lb-ft@4100RPM NOS 06-07'N/A 234WHP@5700RPM 229lb-ft@4600RPM 06-07' 13.782@99.135MPH N/A 95 deg. Jun 07' 03' G35c Auto Vortech Supercharged pshhhh 311WHP 274WTQ13.1@102MPH-on the brakes(108MPH) Hand fabbed Go-Kart 18whp 24wtq 8 page spread Honda Tuning 09-06' issue PM or Email only. Respect that! My Legends Website www.2slik4u.com

12-22-02, 04:23 AM	#18 (permalink)
NickD Bk F*er Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lebanon, NJ Posts: 2,633 Car 1: 1991 Frost White L Sedan Car 2: 1999 BMW 328i 5speed iTrader: (0)	We do have aluminum blocks. DV8, I'll find out tomorrow. I had to do some Christmas shopping today and only got about 2 hours to work on my car. I got it mostly apart. I have to pull the exhaust pipes off still and then I can pull the heads. I will be doing that Sunday morning. __________________ 1991 Legend L Hybrid (gallery) 1989 Legend L 5speed (totaled) 1999 BMW 328i 5 speed http://demandred.dyndns.org/sig-small.jpg http://demandred.dyndns.org/bmw-small-sig.png

12-22-02, 08:44 AM	#19 (permalink)
AlanJ Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 183 iTrader: (0)	Head Gasket Kit My car is in the Garage right now having the Head Gaskets done, I couldnt afford the genuine Honda Gaskets (£760.00 !!) so I went for an aftermarket Kits - still cost a whopping £380.00 !. But the Head Gasket isnt just the Head Gasket, they are loads of other little Gaskets and seals with it - did you fit all those, or just the 2 Head Gaskets? Personally I would never have gone with Copper Gaskets that have been made up by someone. Honda make engines to real fine tolerances, and the Gaskets need to be to the same high tolerances, you can't just look at them and say they are identical, were talking real exact fine tolerances here! But the big thing is you say this is the third time your HG has gone ! You have a serious problem somewhere else, maybe a cracked head caused by overheating. I feel for you my friend - but I'm afraid your gonna have to do it all over again, and it is a big job, get an original or a good quality after market HG set with all the right bits and pieces, get the head checked for a crack, and get the block checked by an engineer for straightness, get everything checked out ! 1 Head Gasket failure is a nightmare, 2 is a near suicide job - but 3 !!! Man I admire you for still being here and loving your Legend!! Good luck !

12-24-02, 02:38 PM	#20 (permalink)
NickD Bk F*er Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lebanon, NJ Posts: 2,633 Car 1: 1991 Frost White L Sedan Car 2: 1999 BMW 328i 5speed iTrader: (0)	Well, I tore the whole engine down on Sunday. I took a few pics as well. What appears to be the problem is every cylinder was leaking compression. The gaskets did not seal against the head. I checked again for flatness with a straightedge and a feeler guage and everything is fine. I contacted KMS about the problem and we are going to look into using a different copper alloy. We'll see what happens. More here __________________ 1991 Legend L Hybrid (gallery) 1989 Legend L 5speed (totaled) 1999 BMW 328i 5 speed http://demandred.dyndns.org/sig-small.jpg http://demandred.dyndns.org/bmw-small-sig.png

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12-24-02, 03:37 PM	#21 (permalink)
AlanJ Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 183 iTrader: (0)	Use a standard Gasket !! Nick Wow ! That is some leakage Nick. This is my advice Nick, Don't go for Copper Gaskets again, it's too much of a risk - you are doing the Research and Development work for these guys - they are the ones who should be testing the Gasket, not you. Ask for a refund (at the least! really they should be charged for the cost of rebuilding the engine again). Just get a Standard Head Gasket set, then you know it is going to work. You are not going to see or feel any real benefit out of Copper HG's Nick, despite what people say. Speak to a real Automobile Engineeer for advice, and I guarantee he will stay 'Stick with the original specification Gaskets'. You should only fit the Copper ones if they have been thouroghly tested and proven in real life, over hundreds of thousands if miles in a lot of cars - and they haven't! Remember Nick, Honda know what they are doing, if Copper was best then they would use copper.

12-24-02, 09:06 PM	#22 (permalink)
Cap Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fort Collins, CO Posts: 150 Car 1: '92 LS Coupe iTrader: (0)	Corteco I suggest Corteco gaskets. The latest and best technology. Cap

12-26-02, 07:09 PM	#26 (permalink)
Nathan_Rd hasng w*nd Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: 94620 Posts: 133 Car 1: zenki=funner iTrader: (0)	Hats off to you Nick! Have to admire that perservance and persistence. I guess the good news is that the left bank was unaffected so you're pretty much half-way there man.

12-26-02, 09:03 PM	#27 (permalink)
2Badd4u Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: cincinnati Posts: 12 Car 1: 1992 coupe iTrader: (0)	Head Gaskets dudes! Nick, checking the block with a strait edge and feeler gauge will not give you the precision you need to check for the flatness it takes to seal w/copper. I have built many engines in my day and that check just wont cut it. I know you didn't want to take the motor out of the car but to seal copper both mateing surfaces must be machined flat. Not just look flat!There are a couple of ways to flaten it in the car if it's not too far out. If anti-freeze got into the bearings you must pull it all apart now anyway or it won't last long. Anti-freeze and the material bearings are made of don't mix!

12-31-02, 01:42 PM	#29 (permalink)
Texan1983 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: urbandale iowa Posts: 467 Car 1: 1988 silver coupe L 5-speed iTrader: (0)	hey guys on the stock head gaskets, it's not an enginereing problem. they were not assembled correct at the factory, they get lazy and don't torque the heads down right. ford has the same problem every engine they build now, a head gasket blows within 70,000 miles. i have worked as a tech for Ford and honda dealers. i would use the stock head gaskets, just torque them right. __________________ 1988 silver legend coupe L 5-speed 110,000 miles custom Cold air intake ZEX nitrous oxide kit (65hp shot) 16" motegi Mr7 wheels with dunlop FM901 tires NOW DEAD because of stupid women drivers in big ass cars! 92 LS coupe Magniflow muffler with custom cat back piping custom cold air intake and K&N filter 90 L coupe 5-speed stock 88 coupe project (autocross racing) 77 Ford F-150 4x4 beast 400ci V8 with 425hp

12-31-02, 01:58 PM	#30 (permalink)
Dave C ver2.0 rh eller Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Rockville Md Posts: 1,951 Car 1: 92 L sedan and 88 LS sedan (wifes) iTrader: (1)	As many times as those heads have been off I'd consider replaceing all the bolts/studs with new. __________________ Started rebuilding IC engines in 1968 at the US Merchant Marine Academy. Don't think you know more than me about auto/IC/control systems unless you can document your education.

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