Engine rebuild is done, need advice - Page 3

NickD · 12-31-02, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave C ver2.0
As many times as those heads have been off I'd consider replaceing all the bolts/studs with new.

Yep, I did that

Also about the factory not torquing the bolts correctly. I believe they do torque them correctly but the problem lies in time they get stretched and loosened. The Legend's head bolts are not torque-to-yield bolts and they should be retorqued after the first run, then again after like 500 - 1000 miles. I will do this after this gasket replacement.

AlanJ · 01-04-03, 11:59 AM

I've just had my HG done and I fitted standard Gaskets, not the Genuine Honda/Acura ones but good quality aftermarket ones. The Garage that is doing the job is a reputable business, and they say that good quality aftermarket are the same quality as original OEM. Honda dont have a factory that makes Gaskets, they just buy them in from a Gasket manufacturer.
The mechanic working on my car said that it isnt a HG failing that causes the car to overheat, a HG failure is caused by a failure somewhere else, the engine overheats and it is that that causes the HG to fail.
I guess like most guys who have had HG failures, I neglected my car a bit, I was more intersted in spending money on new Alloy wheels, suspension upgrades etc etc and didnt service the car, so neglect caused the car to overheat and the HG went !!

Bottom Line is - Make maintenance the priority, and only then spend money on making it look good, then you have a real good chance that the engine will last forever.

NickD · 01-04-03, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AlanJ

The mechanic working on my car said that it isnt a HG failing that causes the car to overheat, a HG failure is caused by a failure somewhere else, the engine overheats and it is that that causes the HG to fail.
I guess like most guys who have had HG failures, I neglected my car a bit, I was more intersted in spending money on new Alloy wheels, suspension upgrades etc etc and didnt service the car, so neglect caused the car to overheat and the HG went !!

Bottom Line is - Make maintenance the priority, and only then spend money on making it look good, then you have a real good chance that the engine will last forever.

From my experience with Legends thus far there is almost no preventive maintenance that can be done to avoid a blown headgasket.

It appears that overtime the headbolts stretch and the #3 cylinder, being in the rear, doesn't get as much cooled anti-freeze as the other two pistons infront of it causing it to run hotter which is why the rear pistons go first.

Since our headbolts are not torque-to-yield bolts they do not stretch on installation but instead will stretch over-time. This mixed with the hotter running temperatures of the rear cylinders causes a blown headgasket.

The preventive maintenance for this would be every 30,000 - 50,000 miles pull off the valve covers and retorque each headbolt.

I re-used my original headbolts in my last engine rebuild which were stretched and caused my headgaskets to die at 50k miles.

AlanJ · 01-05-03, 09:02 AM

Nick D,

IF what you are saying is correct then it would follow that ALL Legends experience HG failure.
I'm probably have the same dilemma as everyone here, on one hand I love my car and don't want to admit they have a problem, but on the other hand I am well pissed that what was at one time the Honda Flagship car, has a serious (possibly) engineering flaw!

There does seem to be a lot of HG failures reported on this forum but how do we go about finding the truth. IF all Legends are experiencing a HG failure then we should all get together and present Honda with the facts and the evidence and see what they say.
Anyone else think it would be a good idea to set up a poll on this forum to see how many HG falures there haver been? And then take it up with Honda, I'd be happy to co-ordinate it all.

Alan J

joeman · 01-05-03, 10:02 PM

This may sound stupid, Nick -- but are you sure your piston rings were aligned properly from the rebuild? This will also cause significant compression loss and BLUE smoke.- just a thought. But the antifreeze and WHITE smoke does indicate leaking from the heads. Let us know what you find out.

NickD · 01-06-03, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by joeman
This may sound stupid, Nick -- but are you sure your piston rings were aligned properly from the rebuild? This will also cause significant compression loss and BLUE smoke.- just a thought. But the antifreeze and WHITE smoke does indicate leaking from the heads. Let us know what you find out.

I am certain without a doubt it was the headgasket as you can see carbon buildup shooting out from each cylinder on the gasket.

*Dv8* · 01-06-03, 03:23 PM

so is KMS going to make a softer one or no?

~Hybrid

Texan1983 · 01-06-03, 04:07 PM

i forgot who said this but they are right, you should retorque the head about 1000-2000 miles after the head gaskets are replaced, then do it every 30,000 miles after that. i just bought a 92 coupe and wanted to see how the head bolts were and acually found a few under the torque specs (mostly by the #3 cyl.)
so i would suggest everyone do this.

ghostKtulu · 01-06-03, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Texan1983
i forgot who said this but they are right, you should retorque the head about 1000-2000 miles after the head gaskets are replaced, then do it every 30,000 miles after that. i just bought a 92 coupe and wanted to see how the head bolts were and acually found a few under the torque specs (mostly by the #3 cyl.)
so i would suggest everyone do this.

how difficult is it to get to the headbolts to retorque?

Texan1983 · 01-06-03, 07:00 PM

not that hard, just pull the valve covers and you should be able to get to the head bolts. i forget the sequence but you need to find it. (look in any repair manual) torque it down.

NickD · 01-07-03, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Texan1983
not that hard, just pull the valve covers and you should be able to get to the head bolts. i forget the sequence but you need to find it. (look in any repair manual) torque it down.

Pulling the valve covers off sounds easy but we ahve all kinds of pipes and connectors on ours. You have to remove the intake, wire harness and lots of piping. A fairly hefty job

The torque order I believe is:

Code:


7  1  3  5

6  4  2  8

theGodfather · 01-09-03, 11:44 PM

Well guys, my car has gone under the knife after a good 8 months of driving on a blown HG. I wasn't able to do it earlier due to financial reasons and I coudln't afford to garage my car.

Hopefully this financial stuff will change once I graduate in 4 months and get my Bachelors of Commerce in Information Technology Management, but as for now, I'm the starving student just workin to pay my tuition off.

Well I was able to get enough $$ to just replace my HG.. not doing any head work and internal work ot the engine this time around, although I would really love to, perhaps in the future.

When I was at the mechanic shop today, he was putting together a list of parts he needs to order so he can build the motor up tomorrow (was all stripped today and heads are going out for machining tomorrow). He thought of hte head bolts but after looking in the manuals he has on our car, there is no recommendation of replacing them. He says there is no problem re-using them otherwise the manual would say to replace. Now I remember this thread and was thinking if I should force him to replace them. Unfortunately they're not too cheap either, a complete set of head bolts will run me about $130 USD. Is there any harm in using the same ones considering this is probably the FIRST time the heads have come off my car since it was built at the factory? I will most likely re-torque them in 5000-7000mi.

What do you guys think?
Will I also notice any increase in power from fixing hte head gasket considering that one cylendar was never running at the right compression?

G

Texan1983 · 01-09-03, 11:57 PM

you right, i made it sound easier than it is but after doing it a few times it isn't so bad. i just looked up the torque order and you have it right.

NickD · 01-10-03, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theGodfather

What do you guys think?
Will I also notice any increase in power from fixing hte head gasket considering that one cylendar was never running at the right compression?

G

I recommend replacing them as they do get stretched with time. I spoke to at least a half dozen people about this and they all recommended it and said the exact same thing. A few of these people have been working with Hondas for a long time as well.

A set of headbolts is very expensive. A way around this, don't take my words for this though, is to over torque the stock bolts. I used the original bolts at the recommended torque setting when I first redid my headgasket and it failed at 50k miles (first one went to 120k) and after much research and insepction of the gaskets I came to the conclusion that the bolts are not in factory spec and thus my torque measurements were off.

Honda also claims that the headbolts do NOT need to be retorqued after installation. I have heard conflicting ideas behind this as well from a multitude of people.

**502 MotorSports** · 01-10-03, 04:10 AM

Nick, where do you standas of now? I was hoping this project would have put you in a category closer to DV8 with a few more mods.

01-04-03, 11:59 AM	#32 (permalink)
AlanJ Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 183 iTrader: (0)	Use Standard Gaskets I've just had my HG done and I fitted standard Gaskets, not the Genuine Honda/Acura ones but good quality aftermarket ones. The Garage that is doing the job is a reputable business, and they say that good quality aftermarket are the same quality as original OEM. Honda dont have a factory that makes Gaskets, they just buy them in from a Gasket manufacturer. The mechanic working on my car said that it isnt a HG failing that causes the car to overheat, a HG failure is caused by a failure somewhere else, the engine overheats and it is that that causes the HG to fail. I guess like most guys who have had HG failures, I neglected my car a bit, I was more intersted in spending money on new Alloy wheels, suspension upgrades etc etc and didnt service the car, so neglect caused the car to overheat and the HG went !! Bottom Line is - Make maintenance the priority, and only then spend money on making it look good, then you have a real good chance that the engine will last forever.

01-05-03, 09:02 AM	#34 (permalink)
AlanJ Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 183 iTrader: (0)	HG Again Nick D, IF what you are saying is correct then it would follow that ALL Legends experience HG failure. I'm probably have the same dilemma as everyone here, on one hand I love my car and don't want to admit they have a problem, but on the other hand I am well pissed that what was at one time the Honda Flagship car, has a serious (possibly) engineering flaw! There does seem to be a lot of HG failures reported on this forum but how do we go about finding the truth. IF all Legends are experiencing a HG failure then we should all get together and present Honda with the facts and the evidence and see what they say. Anyone else think it would be a good idea to set up a poll on this forum to see how many HG falures there haver been? And then take it up with Honda, I'd be happy to co-ordinate it all. Alan J

01-06-03, 03:23 PM	#37 (permalink)
Dv8 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: CA Posts: 4,885 Car 1: 91' 3.5lt Extreme DV8ED Hybrid 6spd Car 2: 03' G35c Blk on Blk Car 3: 92'Yukon/06'Trailer iTrader: (11)	so is KMS going to make a softer one or no? ~Hybrid __________________ AEM EMS Powered. 9 yrs and counting. Results, Where are yours? 12.953@107.865MPH 95 deg. Jun. 07' 3.5 6spd-#55 jet Nitrous 316WHP@5500RPM 345Lb-ft@4100RPM NOS 06-07'N/A 234WHP@5700RPM 229lb-ft@4600RPM 06-07' 13.782@99.135MPH N/A 95 deg. Jun 07' 03' G35c Auto Vortech Supercharged pshhhh 311WHP 274WTQ13.1@102MPH-on the brakes(108MPH) Hand fabbed Go-Kart 18whp 24wtq 8 page spread Honda Tuning 09-06' issue PM or Email only. Respect that! My Legends Website www.2slik4u.com

01-06-03, 04:07 PM	#38 (permalink)
Texan1983 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: urbandale iowa Posts: 467 Car 1: 1988 silver coupe L 5-speed iTrader: (0)	i forgot who said this but they are right, you should retorque the head about 1000-2000 miles after the head gaskets are replaced, then do it every 30,000 miles after that. i just bought a 92 coupe and wanted to see how the head bolts were and acually found a few under the torque specs (mostly by the #3 cyl.) so i would suggest everyone do this. __________________ 1988 silver legend coupe L 5-speed 110,000 miles custom Cold air intake ZEX nitrous oxide kit (65hp shot) 16" motegi Mr7 wheels with dunlop FM901 tires NOW DEAD because of stupid women drivers in big ass cars! 92 LS coupe Magniflow muffler with custom cat back piping custom cold air intake and K&N filter 90 L coupe 5-speed stock 88 coupe project (autocross racing) 77 Ford F-150 4x4 beast 400ci V8 with 425hp

01-06-03, 07:00 PM	#40 (permalink)
Texan1983 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: urbandale iowa Posts: 467 Car 1: 1988 silver coupe L 5-speed iTrader: (0)	not that hard, just pull the valve covers and you should be able to get to the head bolts. i forget the sequence but you need to find it. (look in any repair manual) torque it down. __________________ 1988 silver legend coupe L 5-speed 110,000 miles custom Cold air intake ZEX nitrous oxide kit (65hp shot) 16" motegi Mr7 wheels with dunlop FM901 tires NOW DEAD because of stupid women drivers in big ass cars! 92 LS coupe Magniflow muffler with custom cat back piping custom cold air intake and K&N filter 90 L coupe 5-speed stock 88 coupe project (autocross racing) 77 Ford F-150 4x4 beast 400ci V8 with 425hp

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01-05-03, 10:02 PM	#35 (permalink)
joeman Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 1,386 Car 1: 92 LS Sedan (SOLD) Car 2: 91 240sx 5spd Hatch Car 3: 99 VR4 iTrader: (0)	This may sound stupid, Nick -- but are you sure your piston rings were aligned properly from the rebuild? This will also cause significant compression loss and BLUE smoke.- just a thought. But the antifreeze and WHITE smoke does indicate leaking from the heads. Let us know what you find out.

01-09-03, 11:44 PM	#42 (permalink)
theGodfather "the Don" Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Toronto, ON, CANADA Posts: 1,002 Car 1: 1995 Carbon Black Metallic 6-Speed Coupe iTrader: (2)	Well guys, my car has gone under the knife after a good 8 months of driving on a blown HG. I wasn't able to do it earlier due to financial reasons and I coudln't afford to garage my car. Hopefully this financial stuff will change once I graduate in 4 months and get my Bachelors of Commerce in Information Technology Management, but as for now, I'm the starving student just workin to pay my tuition off. Well I was able to get enough $$ to just replace my HG.. not doing any head work and internal work ot the engine this time around, although I would really love to, perhaps in the future. When I was at the mechanic shop today, he was putting together a list of parts he needs to order so he can build the motor up tomorrow (was all stripped today and heads are going out for machining tomorrow). He thought of hte head bolts but after looking in the manuals he has on our car, there is no recommendation of replacing them. He says there is no problem re-using them otherwise the manual would say to replace. Now I remember this thread and was thinking if I should force him to replace them. Unfortunately they're not too cheap either, a complete set of head bolts will run me about $130 USD. Is there any harm in using the same ones considering this is probably the FIRST time the heads have come off my car since it was built at the factory? I will most likely re-torque them in 5000-7000mi. What do you guys think? Will I also notice any increase in power from fixing hte head gasket considering that one cylendar was never running at the right compression? G __________________ 1995 Legend Coupe 6-speed Carbon Black Metallic 208 WHP @ 6250 RPM 189 FT/LB @ 5250 RPM MUSTANG Dyno 260,000mi and counting WeaponR Secret Weapon Intake - Cold Air Box - Custom 2.5" stainless exhaust system - Remus Rev3 Universal muffler -SPEC Stage II clutch - 5speed flywheel - SR5GUY Chip - APEXi S-AFC - Pullies - MLS copy strut bar - Short Shifter -18" ICON W65 Wheels - KONI reds/Ground Controls - Slotted Brembo Rotors - SS Brake lines - Walbro 255 -ICE

01-09-03, 11:57 PM	#43 (permalink)
Texan1983 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: urbandale iowa Posts: 467 Car 1: 1988 silver coupe L 5-speed iTrader: (0)	you right, i made it sound easier than it is but after doing it a few times it isn't so bad. i just looked up the torque order and you have it right. __________________ 1988 silver legend coupe L 5-speed 110,000 miles custom Cold air intake ZEX nitrous oxide kit (65hp shot) 16" motegi Mr7 wheels with dunlop FM901 tires NOW DEAD because of stupid women drivers in big ass cars! 92 LS coupe Magniflow muffler with custom cat back piping custom cold air intake and K&N filter 90 L coupe 5-speed stock 88 coupe project (autocross racing) 77 Ford F-150 4x4 beast 400ci V8 with 425hp

01-10-03, 04:10 AM	#45 (permalink)
502 MotorSports 502MotorSports.com Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: ATLVILLE Posts: 9,445 Car 1: e39 540i Car 2: e46 325xi \| e46 330i Car 3: S430 iTrader: (0)	Nick, where do you standas of now? I was hoping this project would have put you in a category closer to DV8 with a few more mods. __________________ The Hotness! Elevate Your Standards.... Legend Mod Money! Jasmyn \| Final e39 Pics \| 502MotorSports MySpace

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