Engine rebuild is done, need advice - Page 4

NickD · 01-10-03, 10:27 AM

Well, my engine is still in peices. I am considering going back to the stock composite gaskets but I don't want to screw over KMS with all the effort they have given thus far.

After spending much time researching more information on copper gaskets I determined that to seal our engines properly two more steps need to be taken.

First we need to get the gaskets anieled. Pretty much bake the gaskets till they glow cherry red, ~2000 degrees and let it slowly cool back down to room temperature.

Doing this will soften the copper alloy and straighten out any slight malformations in the copper.

Additionally I need to install sealing rings. These are simply wedge cut steel rings that line the cylinders. Also the heads have to have a groove cut into them for the rings to seat into to create a more solid seal and prevent them from moving.

Normally that groove is cut into the block, however because of the steel insert you can not cut into that.

John is still researching the different copper alloys we can use, I gave him all the info I dug up as well. If I do go ahead and decide to try this new idea I may have to buy a second car. My backup car is my Dad's winter car. He's driving a RWD 6speed with summer tires He got stuck in the snow twice already and needs that Camry back Thinking of picking up a late 80's G1 in the next couple weeks.

theGodfather · 01-10-03, 03:24 PM

Today my mechanic offered me to replace my knock sensors. Even though they are working perfectly, he suggests changing them once the engine is opened up so that in case they go, I don't have to have the expense of ripping her open again.

I declined this offer as I do not have the necessary funds for the sensors (about $120 each sensor). I also have never seen anyone have problems with the knock sensors before and think it is rare if they fail. I'm taking my chances here.

What do you guys think of replacing them or not?

G

NickD · 01-10-03, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theGodfather
Today my mechanic offered me to replace my knock sensors. Even though they are working perfectly, he suggests changing them once the engine is opened up so that in case they go, I don't have to have the expense of ripping her open again.

I declined this offer as I do not have the necessary funds for the sensors (about $120 each sensor). I also have never seen anyone have problems with the knock sensors before and think it is rare if they fail. I'm taking my chances here.

What do you guys think of replacing them or not?

G

Don't replace. The only time I heard of these failing is from careless mechanics that break them off.

AlanJ · 01-15-03, 09:45 AM

I picked my car up from the workshop today ! HG is now sorted, it cost me £1080.00 !!

Nick D - I know you are still wondering wether to fit Copper HG's or fit the standard ones. Originally I thought £350.00 was a lot of money for a HG, but I asked the workshop to keep all the old Gaskets that they replaced - There is a lot more too it than just 2 HG's

NickD · 01-15-03, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AlanJ

Nick D - I know you are still wondering wether to fit Copper HG's or fit the standard ones. Originally I thought £350.00 was a lot of money for a HG, but I asked the workshop to keep all the old Gaskets that they replaced - There is a lot more too it than just 2 HG's

Well, there are only two headgaskets but many gaskets included in the headgasket kit.

You need the intake manifold gaskets, water inlet o-rings, and a number of other smaller gaskets included in the kit. When I say copper headgasket I am talking ONLY the headgaskets are copper. All the other gaskets I bought from Honda.

oem · 01-15-03, 10:29 AM

Are new head bolts included in the gasket kit? Just wondering if I need to specify the use of new head bolts when it's my turn to have the hg job done.

NickD · 01-15-03, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oem
Are new head bolts included in the gasket kit? Just wondering if I need to specify the use of new head bolts when it's my turn to have the hg job done.

No, they are not included because Honda says you don't need to replace them. However from just about everyone I spoke to, it's highly recommended.

AlanJ · 01-15-03, 10:00 PM

Finally worked out how to post a Pic !! Heres the HG set, a lot of bits huh !!.

No I didn;t replace the Head Bolts - the mechanic said Honda are one of the few manufacturers who know there stuff. If Honda say the Bolts don't need replacing, then it's because they KNOW they don't need replacing.

The thing in the top right is the WP by the way - it's not included in the HG set

AlanJ · 01-15-03, 10:24 PM

Nick_D - I forgot to mention this...... When the mechanic had fitted the HG set, He pressure tested the cooling system, this involves (like the name implies !) putting pressure into the radiator and testing for a Pressure drop, remember if the HG is not fitted properly this would show up. The Honda manual says you have to wait 4 Hours before before before re-torguing the head bolts, he thought 'Hey this is crazy waiting 4 hours' so he tested it after straight away, and it showed a pressure drop, and coolant was leaking between the heads and block. 'Oh SH*t' he thought, and immediately released the pressure and left it overnight. Next morning he re-checked the torque settings, pressure tested again and there was NO pressure drop, no leakage.

So Nick, Leave the engine for at least 4 hours or overnight before you start the engine, or even better get a pressure test done after 4hrs minimum before you start the engine. Hope this helps you

The Engine with Heads off !

MERCCLK6 · 01-19-03, 11:22 AM

i have a 93 sedan l right w/165k im having trouble on deciding on getting a jdm engine put in (where can i get it from)my hg is blown would it b cheaper and she's acting funny(car,a.k.a.tiffany)when its cold she doesn't want to start what could be the problem

Cap · 01-19-03, 11:50 PM

Alan, What is the reason for the dark carbon-like color in two of the cylinders, front-left and middle-right?

Cap

[/b][/quote]

Texan1983 · 01-20-03, 02:12 AM

those are the pistons, they are all dark like that, but those are on their top stroke (exhust or compresion) thats why you see them.

NickD · 01-20-03, 11:37 AM

Alan, I had to let it sit over night once I got the heads on because of the Felpro gasket sealer that is required with the copper headgaskets. Lots of things change with the copper than with stock, composit gaskets. Unfortunatly my knowledge with copper was very limited at the time I installed these. Now, after spending lots of time finding better resources I understand a lot more.

AlanJ · 01-20-03, 12:03 PM

Nick,

Hope you get all the problems sorted out soon - after reading your web page I understand more about you and why you want to persevere with the copper HG's, so good luck Nick, keep me updated.

*Dv8* · 01-21-03, 03:30 AM

so whats the status on the copper gaskets? whats KMS doing for you? can they do anything?

try paeco?

~Hybrid

01-10-03, 10:27 AM	#46 (permalink)
NickD Bk F*er Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lebanon, NJ Posts: 2,633 Car 1: 1991 Frost White L Sedan Car 2: 1999 BMW 328i 5speed iTrader: (0)	Well, my engine is still in peices. I am considering going back to the stock composite gaskets but I don't want to screw over KMS with all the effort they have given thus far. After spending much time researching more information on copper gaskets I determined that to seal our engines properly two more steps need to be taken. First we need to get the gaskets anieled. Pretty much bake the gaskets till they glow cherry red, ~2000 degrees and let it slowly cool back down to room temperature. Doing this will soften the copper alloy and straighten out any slight malformations in the copper. Additionally I need to install sealing rings. These are simply wedge cut steel rings that line the cylinders. Also the heads have to have a groove cut into them for the rings to seat into to create a more solid seal and prevent them from moving. Normally that groove is cut into the block, however because of the steel insert you can not cut into that. John is still researching the different copper alloys we can use, I gave him all the info I dug up as well. If I do go ahead and decide to try this new idea I may have to buy a second car. My backup car is my Dad's winter car. He's driving a RWD 6speed with summer tires He got stuck in the snow twice already and needs that Camry back Thinking of picking up a late 80's G1 in the next couple weeks. __________________ 1991 Legend L Hybrid (gallery) 1989 Legend L 5speed (totaled) 1999 BMW 328i 5 speed http://demandred.dyndns.org/sig-small.jpg http://demandred.dyndns.org/bmw-small-sig.png

01-10-03, 03:24 PM	#47 (permalink)
theGodfather "the Don" Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Toronto, ON, CANADA Posts: 1,002 Car 1: 1995 Carbon Black Metallic 6-Speed Coupe iTrader: (2)	Today my mechanic offered me to replace my knock sensors. Even though they are working perfectly, he suggests changing them once the engine is opened up so that in case they go, I don't have to have the expense of ripping her open again. I declined this offer as I do not have the necessary funds for the sensors (about $120 each sensor). I also have never seen anyone have problems with the knock sensors before and think it is rare if they fail. I'm taking my chances here. What do you guys think of replacing them or not? G __________________ 1995 Legend Coupe 6-speed Carbon Black Metallic 208 WHP @ 6250 RPM 189 FT/LB @ 5250 RPM MUSTANG Dyno 260,000mi and counting WeaponR Secret Weapon Intake - Cold Air Box - Custom 2.5" stainless exhaust system - Remus Rev3 Universal muffler -SPEC Stage II clutch - 5speed flywheel - SR5GUY Chip - APEXi S-AFC - Pullies - MLS copy strut bar - Short Shifter -18" ICON W65 Wheels - KONI reds/Ground Controls - Slotted Brembo Rotors - SS Brake lines - Walbro 255 -ICE

01-15-03, 09:45 AM	#49 (permalink)
AlanJ Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 183 iTrader: (0)	Head Gasket finished I picked my car up from the workshop today ! HG is now sorted, it cost me £1080.00 !! Nick D - I know you are still wondering wether to fit Copper HG's or fit the standard ones. Originally I thought £350.00 was a lot of money for a HG, but I asked the workshop to keep all the old Gaskets that they replaced - There is a lot more too it than just 2 HG's

01-15-03, 10:29 AM	#51 (permalink)
oem Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 46 iTrader: (0)	head bolts Are new head bolts included in the gasket kit? Just wondering if I need to specify the use of new head bolts when it's my turn to have the hg job done.

01-15-03, 10:00 PM	#53 (permalink)
AlanJ Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 183 iTrader: (0)	Pic of HG set Finally worked out how to post a Pic !! Heres the HG set, a lot of bits huh !!. No I didn;t replace the Head Bolts - the mechanic said Honda are one of the few manufacturers who know there stuff. If Honda say the Bolts don't need replacing, then it's because they KNOW they don't need replacing. The thing in the top right is the WP by the way - it's not included in the HG set

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01-15-03, 10:24 PM	#54 (permalink)
AlanJ Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 183 iTrader: (0)	Nick D - Leaking HG Nick_D - I forgot to mention this...... When the mechanic had fitted the HG set, He pressure tested the cooling system, this involves (like the name implies !) putting pressure into the radiator and testing for a Pressure drop, remember if the HG is not fitted properly this would show up. The Honda manual says you have to wait 4 Hours before before before re-torguing the head bolts, he thought 'Hey this is crazy waiting 4 hours' so he tested it after straight away, and it showed a pressure drop, and coolant was leaking between the heads and block. 'Oh SH*t' he thought, and immediately released the pressure and left it overnight. Next morning he re-checked the torque settings, pressure tested again and there was NO pressure drop, no leakage. So Nick, Leave the engine for at least 4 hours or overnight before you start the engine, or even better get a pressure test done after 4hrs minimum before you start the engine. Hope this helps you The Engine with Heads off !

01-19-03, 11:22 AM	#55 (permalink)
MERCCLK6 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MARYLAND Posts: 115 Car 1: 93 l sedan iTrader: (0)	engine swap i have a 93 sedan l right w/165k im having trouble on deciding on getting a jdm engine put in (where can i get it from)my hg is blown would it b cheaper and she's acting funny(car,a.k.a.tiffany)when its cold she doesn't want to start what could be the problem

01-19-03, 11:50 PM	#56 (permalink)
Cap Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fort Collins, CO Posts: 150 Car 1: '92 LS Coupe iTrader: (0)	Re: Nick D - Leaking HG Alan, What is the reason for the dark carbon-like color in two of the cylinders, front-left and middle-right? Cap [/b][/quote]

01-20-03, 02:12 AM	#57 (permalink)
Texan1983 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: urbandale iowa Posts: 467 Car 1: 1988 silver coupe L 5-speed iTrader: (0)	those are the pistons, they are all dark like that, but those are on their top stroke (exhust or compresion) thats why you see them. __________________ 1988 silver legend coupe L 5-speed 110,000 miles custom Cold air intake ZEX nitrous oxide kit (65hp shot) 16" motegi Mr7 wheels with dunlop FM901 tires NOW DEAD because of stupid women drivers in big ass cars! 92 LS coupe Magniflow muffler with custom cat back piping custom cold air intake and K&N filter 90 L coupe 5-speed stock 88 coupe project (autocross racing) 77 Ford F-150 4x4 beast 400ci V8 with 425hp

01-20-03, 11:37 AM	#58 (permalink)
NickD Bk F*er Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lebanon, NJ Posts: 2,633 Car 1: 1991 Frost White L Sedan Car 2: 1999 BMW 328i 5speed iTrader: (0)	Alan, I had to let it sit over night once I got the heads on because of the Felpro gasket sealer that is required with the copper headgaskets. Lots of things change with the copper than with stock, composit gaskets. Unfortunatly my knowledge with copper was very limited at the time I installed these. Now, after spending lots of time finding better resources I understand a lot more. __________________ 1991 Legend L Hybrid (gallery) 1989 Legend L 5speed (totaled) 1999 BMW 328i 5 speed http://demandred.dyndns.org/sig-small.jpg http://demandred.dyndns.org/bmw-small-sig.png

01-20-03, 12:03 PM	#59 (permalink)
AlanJ Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 183 iTrader: (0)	Nick, Hope you get all the problems sorted out soon - after reading your web page I understand more about you and why you want to persevere with the copper HG's, so good luck Nick, keep me updated.

01-21-03, 03:30 AM	#60 (permalink)
Dv8 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: CA Posts: 4,886 Car 1: 91' 3.5lt Extreme DV8ED Hybrid 6spd Car 2: 03' G35c Blk on Blk Car 3: 92'Yukon/06'Trailer iTrader: (11)	so whats the status on the copper gaskets? whats KMS doing for you? can they do anything? try paeco? ~Hybrid __________________ AEM EMS Powered. 9 yrs and counting. Results, Where are yours? 12.953@107.865MPH 95 deg. Jun. 07' 3.5 6spd-#55 jet Nitrous 316WHP@5500RPM 345Lb-ft@4100RPM NOS 06-07'N/A 234WHP@5700RPM 229lb-ft@4600RPM 06-07' 13.782@99.135MPH N/A 95 deg. Jun 07' 03' G35c Auto Vortech Supercharged pshhhh 311WHP 274WTQ13.1@102MPH-on the brakes(108MPH) Hand fabbed Go-Kart 18whp 24wtq 8 page spread Honda Tuning 09-06' issue PM or Email only. Respect that! My Legends Website www.2slik4u.com

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