Engine rebuild is done, need advice - Page 5

NickD · 01-21-03, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dv8
so whats the status on the copper gaskets? whats KMS doing for you? can they do anything?

try paeco?

~Hybrid

John at KMS is looking into different copper alloys right now. I am looking into different methods of cutting sealing grooves into either the block or heads. Problem is if I do the heads they need to be dissasembled and then reassembled... $$$

AlanJ · 01-22-03, 05:34 AM

Hi Nick,
What are the benefits of having Copper Gaskets? After all the trouble you seem to be going through, and it still doesn't seem like they are qaranteed to work - will it all be worth it?

NickD · 01-22-03, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AlanJ
Hi Nick,
What are the benefits of having Copper Gaskets? After all the trouble you seem to be going through, and it still doesn't seem like they are qaranteed to work - will it all be worth it?

Well, the small benefit is I will never have to replace the gaskets again. Even if I tear the engine apart I can reuse them up to 5 times. Also once I got the sealing ring grooves in there I can drop a new set on as easily as stock gaskets.

Big improvements come when compression is increased and/or forced induction is used. With either of these two modifications you greatly increase the risk of blowing your headgasket pre-maturely. I am not ruling out the posibility of one of the above in the future of my engine either

MERCCLK6 · 01-22-03, 01:06 PM

i have a 93 l 4door and a blown hg what do u think i should do do the hg 's or get a new engine and if so what should i replace my mechanic is very good and she told me to get a new engine 4 $2800 i need some help

AlanJ · 01-23-03, 05:59 AM

MerckSLK6,
Repair or New Engine - Hard choice to make. I just had my HG repaired and it cost me £1100.00 (£sterling). The mechanic said everything else on the engine seemed perfect - Heads, valves, piston condition etc. So I now have an engine that should go at least another 100k miles. Depends what you mean by a 'new' engine - a used JDM one or a rebuilt engine witha garantee, you have to decide yourself really.

NickD,

Maybe it sounds like I am always knocking your idead, I hope you don't think that! I'm just really interested in what you are trying to do, but my opinion is that it just aint worth it. Honda made the NSX, that has a blueprinted 3.2 V6, with polished and balanced titanium con-rods, V-tech head, polished and ported heads, special Inlet and exhaust manifolds, and a lot more, and all hand assembled - a real advanced version of the Legend engine in a way, and that only gives out 270hp, just 40 more than the Legend. In other words our engine is pretty advanced already. In the UK GM have a new car (Vectra) that has an up to the date new 3.2 V6 and that gives out 203hp, Alfa Romeo have a V6 3.0 that gives out 210. So our 10 yr old design 3.2 is still up there with the best.
Forced induction on our engine is a problem because of limited room in the engine bay. A freer breathing engine - intake and exhaust can maybe give an extra 10hp (maybe!!) re 'chipping' the engine gives another 10, that brings it up to 250. If I were you I would stick with the standard HG and concentrate your resources on getting exhaust manifolds made. Remember the HG is the weak link in the engine. If you strengthen that weak link with copper HG's, I reckon overheating will just make the weak link move somewhere else, the copper HG may not blow, but then the Heads may crack.
Whatever you do - Good luck Nick, keep on trying !

*Dv8* · 01-23-03, 02:06 PM

ITs funny i took my spare heads into a machine shop yesterday and one of the guys examined it. he looked at the headgasket and told me that theer was already wear on the cyillinder rings that would point to an eventual HG problem. Around the metal ring of the cylinder HG you could see black cumbustion residue. Thats what he said would eventually turnout in to a HG problem. funny that my spare engine has less than 50,000 miles. Are the heads that poor of a design that we will always have this problem? The machinst recomended me to have som custom head studs made up, ones that will squeeze good and not strech as much.

On another note, i was surprised to see the way the ports and cumbustion chamber were everything was already really smooth. Unless someone wants to port the ports out there should only be minimal work needed.

the upper Intake manifold, is rough, very rough. is it worth spending 395 to have extrude hone polish it up? Does it seep like a bottle neck? for the moment for get about the exhaust manifold, pretent they are optimal.

~Hybrid

theGodfather · 01-23-03, 02:23 PM

DV8,

Which cylender did the headgasket show evidence of an eventual blowout?

I'm curious to know if it's always the same cylender on everyone that blows their HG. Mine occured at the passenger side, closest to the firewall (#6 i believe).

I never had the $$ this time around to do any internal work to the heads while they were apart, but just from replacing the HG, machining down the heads to make them true and cleaning up the carbon deposists, I already feel a much greater throttle response. Although I feel more pull in the high-end "at the seat of my pants", it can just be amplified from my joy of having my HG fixed after many months and also from the throttle response. Only a dyno will tell which I do plan on putting it on sometime soon to satisfy some curiousity.

Would have done the HG replacement job myself but I live in a condo and don't have any private secure facility (that is heated!) to spend the time ripping the engine down apart.

Has anyone other than the guy with the turbo legend project car fabricated a custom intake manifold? I'm thinking that the benefit/cost for making one of those for a N/A engine would not make it worth doing.

G

ghostKtulu · 01-23-03, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AlanJ
If you strengthen that weak link with copper HG's, I reckon overheating will just make the weak link move somewhere else, the copper HG may not blow, but then the Heads may crack.
Whatever you do - Good luck Nick, keep on trying ! [/b]

Yes and no...if you keep an eye on your car...and make sure your cooling system is fine...no cracks in the radiator...timely waterpump replacement...coolant flush...etc...then there should be little or no worries about overheating. I know people have problems with a crack in thier radiator, but I would guess that an internal leak (blown head) is what got the best of most people.

If the HG problem is indeed cause by insufficient cooling of the cylinder closest to shotgun...by reinforcing the HG you are eliminating the almost inevitable risk of an internal leak that YOU dont really have control over...so if there is no internal leak...and you keep an eye on the other cooling components...there is probably no overheating.

If there is overheating caused by say a neglected radiator or waterpump, then yeah overheating will occur and probably damage the aluminum heads...it will warp and there is a possibility that it will damage the seal.

BTW...Nick...I got a question...are you gonna leave those sliding cylinder sleeves the way it is or are you gonna put some rings to keep it in a fixed position. Do you know what I am talking about? I know people that dont like the idea that they move up and down so I think they keep it in a fixed position with rings? I am not 100% sure of that.

NickD · 01-23-03, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dv8
[b]ITs funny i took my spare heads into a machine shop yesterday and one of the guys examined it. he looked at the headgasket and told me that theer was already wear on the cyillinder rings that would point to an eventual HG problem. Around the metal ring of the cylinder HG you could see black cumbustion residue. Thats what he said would eventually turnout in to a HG problem. funny that my spare engine has less than 50,000 miles. Are the heads that poor of a design that we will always have this problem? The machinst recomended me to have som custom head studs made up, ones that will squeeze good and not strech as much.

This is why I say replace the headgaskets on a rebuild job. I am replacing mine and over-torquing them as well because of the copper gaskets.

I believe the heads/block is a good design poorly implemented.

Quote:

On another note, i was surprised to see the way the ports and cumbustion chamber were everything was already really smooth. Unless someone wants to port the ports out there should only be minimal work needed.

I ported the hell out of everything and greatly enlarged the ports. I am not talking thousandths of an inch, almost 1/4" on each intake/exhaust port. I then enlarged the exhaust manifold ports to match and increased the main outlet port 1/2". I matched the intake port and cleaned it all by hand. I got it pretty damn smooth but my hands were killing me after the 5+ hours of sanding away at it. I used powertools where applicable.

Here are shots of the polished intake and the ported and polished exhaust manifolds:

Click on each image for a very large version:

Intake Manifold

Exhaust manifold

Intake Port

Exhaust Port

Quote:

the upper Intake manifold, is rough, very rough. is it worth spending 395 to have extrude hone polish it up? Does it seep like a bottle neck? for the moment for get about the exhaust manifold, pretent they are optimal.

Everyhting I have read and everyone I have spoken to said intake is not as important as exhaust. Getting air into the engine is not as hard as getting exhaust gases out.

AlanJ · 01-23-03, 08:13 PM

Hi NickD and DV8,

Nick you really have done a lot of work havent you, have you had any before and after Dyno's done after all that porting and polishing? Or did the car feel any quicker? The mechanic who worked on my engine was really impressed by it, said it was one of the most impressive engines he had ever worked on, so it's good to know that we have a good engine to start with isnt' it.
I've heard that getting the exhaust out quick is the best way to go to, keep working on those Headers DV8, lookd like you may be on to a winner! Polished and enlarged ports and a decent set of headers, you 2 should get together and pool your knowledge!
Alan J

*Dv8* · 01-25-03, 03:30 AM

Wish teleporting was an option.

That looks ood Nick, i think im going to save my money and put my brand new corded, cordless and air tools to use on the intake manifold along with the exhaust manifold(unless the headers are ready anytime soon) the two heads are being pulished up. some porting is being done but is very minimal.

too bad we cant get bigger valves in there without machine the whole head.

im still wondering about the copper HG. whats that status on that?

what did the stock head studs cost u?

Godfather:
the pasanger side cyilinders all had the cumbustion sign of wear on the HG. the drivers side didnt.

**502 MotorSports** · 01-25-03, 10:15 AM

yesterday, I dropped off the left and right heads to KMS so that he could make/improve the design of the copper headgaskets, as well as any other parts that we need...valves, springs, etc.

NickD · 01-27-03, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dv8
Wish teleporting was an option.

That looks ood Nick, i think im going to save my money and put my brand new corded, cordless and air tools to use on the intake manifold along with the exhaust manifold(unless the headers are ready anytime soon) the two heads are being pulished up. some porting is being done but is very minimal.

too bad we cant get bigger valves in there without machine the whole head.

im still wondering about the copper HG. whats that status on that?

what did the stock head studs cost u?

DV8, I bought a set of porting rolls from Summit Racing, but if you don't have a porting kit buy the beginners kit because it comes with all the shafts and parts you will need. I did all the polishing by hand.

Yeah, bigger exhaust valves would be nice, however it is impossible I believe. The exhaust valves are right up against the side wall. To increase their size you would have to move the valve stem guides over which means the rocker arm assembly needs to be modified along with the cams.

Stock headbolts cost me I believe ~$9 each and 16 are required, so it adds up. However, you can get studs are bolts from a company like ARP made for you if you have the specs. I called them and got all the required steps to take to get those specs. However, due to time restrictions at that time I needed to buy them more quickly, so I went with stock.

*Dv8* · 01-27-03, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NickD

Yeah, bigger exhaust valves would be nice, however it is impossible I believe. The exhaust valves are right up against the side wall. To increase their size you would have to move the valve stem guides over which means the rocker arm assembly needs to be modified along with the cams.

word for word thats what the machinst said, amazing

ITs costing me 700, im having the heads ported an polished with a 3 angle valvejob everything is going to be gasket matched and a resurfaced.

the intake manifold is going to be ported and polished, gasket matched. the manifold is also going to be drilled and tapped for NOS.

i still need to inquire about the copper HG and headstuds.

its going to cost me, but this is the first time i do any internal work. its kinda exciting.

~Hybrid

E K · 01-27-03, 11:51 PM

Dv8, where are you getting your stuff P&P'ed? I'm prob going to get the same thing done in the next 3 months. I already have a spare set of heads.

01-22-03, 05:34 AM	#62 (permalink)
AlanJ Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 183 iTrader: (0)	Any Benefits ?? Hi Nick, What are the benefits of having Copper Gaskets? After all the trouble you seem to be going through, and it still doesn't seem like they are qaranteed to work - will it all be worth it?

01-22-03, 01:06 PM	#64 (permalink)
MERCCLK6 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MARYLAND Posts: 115 Car 1: 93 l sedan iTrader: (0)	hg i have a 93 l 4door and a blown hg what do u think i should do do the hg 's or get a new engine and if so what should i replace my mechanic is very good and she told me to get a new engine 4 $2800 i need some help

01-23-03, 05:59 AM	#65 (permalink)
AlanJ Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 183 iTrader: (0)	Engine or Repair MerckSLK6, Repair or New Engine - Hard choice to make. I just had my HG repaired and it cost me £1100.00 (£sterling). The mechanic said everything else on the engine seemed perfect - Heads, valves, piston condition etc. So I now have an engine that should go at least another 100k miles. Depends what you mean by a 'new' engine - a used JDM one or a rebuilt engine witha garantee, you have to decide yourself really. NickD, Maybe it sounds like I am always knocking your idead, I hope you don't think that! I'm just really interested in what you are trying to do, but my opinion is that it just aint worth it. Honda made the NSX, that has a blueprinted 3.2 V6, with polished and balanced titanium con-rods, V-tech head, polished and ported heads, special Inlet and exhaust manifolds, and a lot more, and all hand assembled - a real advanced version of the Legend engine in a way, and that only gives out 270hp, just 40 more than the Legend. In other words our engine is pretty advanced already. In the UK GM have a new car (Vectra) that has an up to the date new 3.2 V6 and that gives out 203hp, Alfa Romeo have a V6 3.0 that gives out 210. So our 10 yr old design 3.2 is still up there with the best. Forced induction on our engine is a problem because of limited room in the engine bay. A freer breathing engine - intake and exhaust can maybe give an extra 10hp (maybe!!) re 'chipping' the engine gives another 10, that brings it up to 250. If I were you I would stick with the standard HG and concentrate your resources on getting exhaust manifolds made. Remember the HG is the weak link in the engine. If you strengthen that weak link with copper HG's, I reckon overheating will just make the weak link move somewhere else, the copper HG may not blow, but then the Heads may crack. Whatever you do - Good luck Nick, keep on trying !

01-23-03, 02:06 PM	#66 (permalink)
Dv8 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: CA Posts: 4,870 Car 1: 91' 3.5lt Extreme DV8ED Hybrid 6spd Car 2: 03' G35c Blk on Blk Car 3: 92'Yukon/06'Trailer iTrader: (11)	ITs funny i took my spare heads into a machine shop yesterday and one of the guys examined it. he looked at the headgasket and told me that theer was already wear on the cyillinder rings that would point to an eventual HG problem. Around the metal ring of the cylinder HG you could see black cumbustion residue. Thats what he said would eventually turnout in to a HG problem. funny that my spare engine has less than 50,000 miles. Are the heads that poor of a design that we will always have this problem? The machinst recomended me to have som custom head studs made up, ones that will squeeze good and not strech as much. On another note, i was surprised to see the way the ports and cumbustion chamber were everything was already really smooth. Unless someone wants to port the ports out there should only be minimal work needed. the upper Intake manifold, is rough, very rough. is it worth spending 395 to have extrude hone polish it up? Does it seep like a bottle neck? for the moment for get about the exhaust manifold, pretent they are optimal. ~Hybrid __________________ AEM EMS Powered. 9 yrs and counting. Results, Where are yours? 12.953@107.865MPH 95 deg. Jun. 07' 3.5 6spd-#55 jet Nitrous 316WHP@5500RPM 345Lb-ft@4100RPM NOS 06-07'N/A 234WHP@5700RPM 229lb-ft@4600RPM 06-07' 13.782@99.135MPH N/A 95 deg. Jun 07' 03' G35c Auto Vortech Supercharged pshhhh 311WHP 274WTQ13.1@102MPH-on the brakes(108MPH) Hand fabbed Go-Kart 18whp 24wtq 8 page spread Honda Tuning 09-06' issue PM or Email only. Respect that! My Legends Website www.2slik4u.com

01-23-03, 02:23 PM	#67 (permalink)
theGodfather "the Don" Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Toronto, ON, CANADA Posts: 1,002 Car 1: 1995 Carbon Black Metallic 6-Speed Coupe iTrader: (2)	DV8, Which cylender did the headgasket show evidence of an eventual blowout? I'm curious to know if it's always the same cylender on everyone that blows their HG. Mine occured at the passenger side, closest to the firewall (#6 i believe). I never had the $$ this time around to do any internal work to the heads while they were apart, but just from replacing the HG, machining down the heads to make them true and cleaning up the carbon deposists, I already feel a much greater throttle response. Although I feel more pull in the high-end "at the seat of my pants", it can just be amplified from my joy of having my HG fixed after many months and also from the throttle response. Only a dyno will tell which I do plan on putting it on sometime soon to satisfy some curiousity. Would have done the HG replacement job myself but I live in a condo and don't have any private secure facility (that is heated!) to spend the time ripping the engine down apart. Has anyone other than the guy with the turbo legend project car fabricated a custom intake manifold? I'm thinking that the benefit/cost for making one of those for a N/A engine would not make it worth doing. G __________________ 1995 Legend Coupe 6-speed Carbon Black Metallic 208 WHP @ 6250 RPM 189 FT/LB @ 5250 RPM MUSTANG Dyno 260,000mi and counting WeaponR Secret Weapon Intake - Cold Air Box - Custom 2.5" stainless exhaust system - Remus Rev3 Universal muffler -SPEC Stage II clutch - 5speed flywheel - SR5GUY Chip - APEXi S-AFC - Pullies - MLS copy strut bar - Short Shifter -18" ICON W65 Wheels - KONI reds/Ground Controls - Slotted Brembo Rotors - SS Brake lines - Walbro 255 -ICE

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01-23-03, 08:13 PM	#70 (permalink)
AlanJ Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 183 iTrader: (0)	This is getting good !! Hi NickD and DV8, Nick you really have done a lot of work havent you, have you had any before and after Dyno's done after all that porting and polishing? Or did the car feel any quicker? The mechanic who worked on my engine was really impressed by it, said it was one of the most impressive engines he had ever worked on, so it's good to know that we have a good engine to start with isnt' it. I've heard that getting the exhaust out quick is the best way to go to, keep working on those Headers DV8, lookd like you may be on to a winner! Polished and enlarged ports and a decent set of headers, you 2 should get together and pool your knowledge! Alan J

01-25-03, 03:30 AM	#71 (permalink)
Dv8 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: CA Posts: 4,870 Car 1: 91' 3.5lt Extreme DV8ED Hybrid 6spd Car 2: 03' G35c Blk on Blk Car 3: 92'Yukon/06'Trailer iTrader: (11)	Wish teleporting was an option. That looks ood Nick, i think im going to save my money and put my brand new corded, cordless and air tools to use on the intake manifold along with the exhaust manifold(unless the headers are ready anytime soon) the two heads are being pulished up. some porting is being done but is very minimal. too bad we cant get bigger valves in there without machine the whole head. im still wondering about the copper HG. whats that status on that? what did the stock head studs cost u? Godfather: the pasanger side cyilinders all had the cumbustion sign of wear on the HG. the drivers side didnt. __________________ AEM EMS Powered. 9 yrs and counting. Results, Where are yours? 12.953@107.865MPH 95 deg. Jun. 07' 3.5 6spd-#55 jet Nitrous 316WHP@5500RPM 345Lb-ft@4100RPM NOS 06-07'N/A 234WHP@5700RPM 229lb-ft@4600RPM 06-07' 13.782@99.135MPH N/A 95 deg. Jun 07' 03' G35c Auto Vortech Supercharged pshhhh 311WHP 274WTQ13.1@102MPH-on the brakes(108MPH) Hand fabbed Go-Kart 18whp 24wtq 8 page spread Honda Tuning 09-06' issue PM or Email only. Respect that! My Legends Website www.2slik4u.com

01-25-03, 10:15 AM	#72 (permalink)
502 MotorSports 502MotorSports.com Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: ATLVILLE Posts: 9,445 Car 1: e39 540i Car 2: e46 325xi \| e46 330i Car 3: S430 iTrader: (0)	yesterday, I dropped off the left and right heads to KMS so that he could make/improve the design of the copper headgaskets, as well as any other parts that we need...valves, springs, etc. __________________ The Hotness! Elevate Your Standards.... Legend Mod Money! Jasmyn \| Final e39 Pics \| 502MotorSports MySpace

01-27-03, 11:51 PM	#75 (permalink)
E K Junior Mint Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: SGV & SouthBay Posts: 640 Car 1: 91 Legend, 03 G35 iTrader: (0)	Dv8, where are you getting your stuff P&P'ed? I'm prob going to get the same thing done in the next 3 months. I already have a spare set of heads. __________________ 91 Acura Legend Sedan LS 173 HP/180 torque 03.5 Infiniti G35 Coupe 5AT for sale 06 Infiniti Athens Blue G35 Coupe 6MT