Telion

First I apologize for the serious teaser and putting up pics of a project without results and dyno's because there are none. And who knows how long it could be before I go any further it could be a year or more! I just love hearing the ideas suggestions, feedback and knowlege you all have to offer. Isn't that a bulk of what we are here for? Well as many of you know I am currently underway with the Supercharger setup. It has been a very slow process but is still underway and the manifold for it is now being welded from what I understand.

I could not get over how much I loved Hotlava's tt setup and it overcame me. So I figured at some point in the future I also wanted to do a tt setup and began slowly buying the additional pieces it would take to do so (being that many are the same, such as injectors, fuel pump monitoring gauges and what not). Then last week my car decide to get some garage time (it broke down later found to be a broken axle, Ebay? I think it was tsk tsk). But none the less it was a perfect excuse to play while she was down so I started to look at how I would eventually want my tt to be setup. What better way than to play. It helps kill concepts that look good in your head given the (not so) workable space; a few of my ideas have since died. But long story short this is where I am at so far. Now that my wife knows that it is just a broken axle I only have shipping time to continue playing before having to put her back together again.

A couple quick notes

-No this will not be done/completed for a very very long time.-This is very new to me so I would be the last to ask for suggestions though I love to share ideas.
-Yes the supercharger project is still underway and taking precedence over this.

-No I did not wake up one morning and say I am going to do a Legend Twin turbo setup during breakfast (sorry Hybird, that just kills me lol)
-No I am not going to be using PVC intercooler piping it is just cheaper to hack away at till I figure how I am going to do it when the time comes.
-I have also read up on some articles of Twin vs. Single and each seem to have there advantages from knowlegable members of their respective forums.
-cheap clamps will be replaced with t-clamps.

Ok the book is done here's the pics. (excuse the mess my garage is at war)
also please forgive the ugly "stand in" mesh and terrible paint, looks will come last. I don't want to tear it up after doing body work and paint.










This one concerns me, there is not much rook and there is a damn brake fluid line that may need to be relocated. wires and hoses I don't mind moving brake, AC, and power steering lines I am not so happy/experinced with.


Hopefully at some point I will be done destroying my car and be able to build it up like the one in my head lol.

-Tip- If you get a new intercooler or radiator, cover the fins with cardboard until it is fully installed so you don't damage the fins during installation

PS. The purple finish and and nice shiney engine bay will be back in time. it was too hard to maintain and not scratch to hell while getting a bug of some sort and doing stuff like ^ this. I think eventually I will powdercoat vs. paint though.

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3.5, TII cams,pnp mani & springs,Telion Chip,HID's,H&R's/Koni's,Addco Sway bars,TII calipers,RH C2's,R.J. shifter,DV8 EGR plate,CAI,OBX headers,2.5" exhaust,hi-flow cat,K2 muffler,Stage III clutch,S&D rotors, KVR pads, blackend damper, a CF hood, AFC NEO, 3.5 Aluminum pulley, & Web cams. C&R Racing radiator and more to come.

 

Telion

I will reserve this post for questions I have as I generate ideas and continue purchasing items for this. If I find the asnwers first I will include them with the question. and if the answer is provided (and validated) I will alos add it and the name of who provided it to give proper credit where credit is do. THANK YOU for your help on this in advance!

-What is the recommended -AN line size for the oil lines to and from the turbos?

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3.5, TII cams,pnp mani & springs,Telion Chip,HID's,H&R's/Koni's,Addco Sway bars,TII calipers,RH C2's,R.J. shifter,DV8 EGR plate,CAI,OBX headers,2.5" exhaust,hi-flow cat,K2 muffler,Stage III clutch,S&D rotors, KVR pads, blackend damper, a CF hood, AFC NEO, 3.5 Aluminum pulley, & Web cams. C&R Racing radiator and more to come.

Telion

Ideas on current train of thought and items used.

Try to duplicate Hotlavaflows oil feed system for the TB0363 (T3 series turbo)
but cannot seem to find a pump to feed the system in my price range yet. (yep cheap turbos since this is a (for now) cheap project.

Do a single BOV on the SRI section of the piping.

Try to do a variation of Hotlavaflows mid-mount turbo setup, I think the additional piping before it hits the engine creates enough lag/spool time to gain better traction before kicking in. Prior to reading about this and realizing the space limitations for exhaust piping, additional heat in the engine bay, and turbo placement I did want to put them in the engine bay.

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\/Provider of The Telion Chip click here\/
http://telionsite.com or search Telion Chip
3.5, TII cams,pnp mani & springs,Telion Chip,HID's,H&R's/Koni's,Addco Sway bars,TII calipers,RH C2's,R.J. shifter,DV8 EGR plate,CAI,OBX headers,2.5" exhaust,hi-flow cat,K2 muffler,Stage III clutch,S&D rotors, KVR pads, blackend damper, a CF hood, AFC NEO, 3.5 Aluminum pulley, & Web cams. C&R Racing radiator and more to come.

GrumpySteelMan

Usually people run a -4AN line for an oil feed.

I like running a 1/2" ID high temp rubber hose for return lines.

I'll get back in here when I have more time.

Regards,

GSM

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Telion

Thanks buddy, it gives me a good place to start.

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http://telionsite.com or search Telion Chip
3.5, TII cams,pnp mani & springs,Telion Chip,HID's,H&R's/Koni's,Addco Sway bars,TII calipers,RH C2's,R.J. shifter,DV8 EGR plate,CAI,OBX headers,2.5" exhaust,hi-flow cat,K2 muffler,Stage III clutch,S&D rotors, KVR pads, blackend damper, a CF hood, AFC NEO, 3.5 Aluminum pulley, & Web cams. C&R Racing radiator and more to come.

lgnd4u2nv

damn...... a FMIC just looks so good on a legend.....sure wish it was easier to go FI on a legend motor

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Winter NC meet picture and discussion thread!

Telion

yeah I agree, but I think once I have done it, and have learned the to do's and not to do's, it will be a well learned lesson. And as we are starting to see more people doing it more info as to making it easier and cheaper (or even available) is happening; so hopefully this project will leave me with something to contribute to the community in return as well like those that have attempted it thus far.

PS I actually got that baby to fit behind the bumper too, it is tucked out of view and still gets air
I was going to post a pic but the bumper was just too ugly to have to look at in a camera shot every time I view this thread. I gave the better 91-93 bumper to my wife.

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\/Provider of The Telion Chip click here\/
http://telionsite.com or search Telion Chip
3.5, TII cams,pnp mani & springs,Telion Chip,HID's,H&R's/Koni's,Addco Sway bars,TII calipers,RH C2's,R.J. shifter,DV8 EGR plate,CAI,OBX headers,2.5" exhaust,hi-flow cat,K2 muffler,Stage III clutch,S&D rotors, KVR pads, blackend damper, a CF hood, AFC NEO, 3.5 Aluminum pulley, & Web cams. C&R Racing radiator and more to come.

whats77inaname

Relocate the battery to the back and use the space to fit the turbo(s).

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Telion

Yeah I considered that, but I also posted why I decided against it. I don't want any piping hanging any (if not much) lower than it currently is I have no desire to raise my car. The challenge will be mounting the turbos in a fashion that coinsides with this desire.

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http://telionsite.com or search Telion Chip
3.5, TII cams,pnp mani & springs,Telion Chip,HID's,H&R's/Koni's,Addco Sway bars,TII calipers,RH C2's,R.J. shifter,DV8 EGR plate,CAI,OBX headers,2.5" exhaust,hi-flow cat,K2 muffler,Stage III clutch,S&D rotors, KVR pads, blackend damper, a CF hood, AFC NEO, 3.5 Aluminum pulley, & Web cams. C&R Racing radiator and more to come.

whats77inaname

Heat? Mod your hood a little to increase air flow

Telion

the most I will do is possibly vent it because I wanna keep it sorta low key.

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http://telionsite.com or search Telion Chip
3.5, TII cams,pnp mani & springs,Telion Chip,HID's,H&R's/Koni's,Addco Sway bars,TII calipers,RH C2's,R.J. shifter,DV8 EGR plate,CAI,OBX headers,2.5" exhaust,hi-flow cat,K2 muffler,Stage III clutch,S&D rotors, KVR pads, blackend damper, a CF hood, AFC NEO, 3.5 Aluminum pulley, & Web cams. C&R Racing radiator and more to come.

Dv8

Any specific reason for twin over single or vice versa?

~Dv8

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whats77inaname

Yeah, I'm like you, I like to keep it stealth....BUT the hood pins kinda give away the fact that it ain't stock And the FMIC ain't helpin' any, T *lol* I've been tinkering with the idea of painting the FMIC black....we shall see

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Telion

Single vs. Twin Turbo - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center
I went through some of the info from other sites and most of the info was either opinion based or from people who were less knowlegable of what they were talking about but I did like the info contained in these links.

This one was interesting, but I had a hard time telling who really knew exactly what they were talking about.
Twin Turbo vs. Single, difference? - HybridZ

I found this interesting

Spool vs. Turbo Size:
The Infamous Single vs. Twin Debate

When you think about spool on a turbo, there are a few considerations to observe. Firstly, you want is as low as possible, for obvious reasons. This brings up the dilemma of using a single turbocharger or twin turbochargers. There are ideas out there that may cause you to lean towards one setup or the either, but most can be dismissed with a real look at the issue. Here are some examples:

-Some people argue “one turbo gets all the cylinders’ energy, twins gets half per turbo and significant exhaust pulses, which make the twins more inefficient”. This is mostly invalid because modern turbine housings are radially split and tangential, so the exhaust pulses are calmed upon entry to the turbine, and more effectively handle unsteady energy flow. Also, inertia for the most part prevents any major transience with (heavily) pulsed exhaust energy.

-You get more exhaust pressure with a single than twins, which spools it faster. This can be eliminated because exhaust pressure is not really dependant on the turbo, moreso the manifold. Additionally, exhaust pressure does not have a direct effect on exhaust energy. While it IS an indirect effect on exhaust pressure, nothing is going to add energy to the exhaust flow, especially making the engine pressurize the exhaust more. This not only makes the engine and turbo less efficient, it is useless. Looking at the thermodynamic equation for energy in a fluid flow:

Q + ∑mi(hi + 1/2 (Vi)2+ gZi) = ∑me(he + 1/2(Ve)2+gZe) +[m1(u1+1/2(V1)2+gZ1)-m2(u1+1/2(V2)2+gZ2)] + W

Where Q = heat transfer rate to the control volume
mi=mass exhaust flow in
me=mass of exhaust flow out
m1=initial mass of gas in the control volume (turbine housing)
m2=mass of gas in turbine at the end of the control volume process examination
h= enthalpy (1 = initial, 2=final, I=flow in, e= flow out)
u = internal energy (same conditions stated above)
V= velocity
Z= vertical height
g=force of gravity (9.807 m/s2)
W=work rate by the control volume


This shows that exhaust pressure does not directly affect the energy of the gas; it would increase the velocity of the inflow, but also increase the outflow, which would negate the effect since the mass flow rate should not change. Wastegates do not affect this since they exit the flow before the turbine. Arguing the pressure increases the heat may also be argued because of the same reason. The inflow enthalpy and outflow enthalpy are affected the same way: more heat in means more heat out. While is not equal out perfectly because of turbine performance, it is not enough to affect the thermodynamic flow of the turbine. Examine this closer and you might notice that increasing the pressure (by the ideal gas condition) with the (required) decrease in volume of the gas under inspection will have a very minimal effect. Raising the pressure by 1 bar (a lot) in a 40mm ID pipe (primary) requires a bit smaller then a 35mm pipe to keep the temperature constant. This is a 23.4 % decrease in pipe diameter, which is a LOT. This means that you would have to decrease pipe diameter by more than 23 percent to see any effect increased heat by increasing pressure by 1 bar. At 3 bar (44psi) of exhaust pressure, a 1 bar increase in exhaust pressure at an exhaust gas temperature of 600 degrees Celsius (873K) requires a radius decrease of ~10%. At 1000C (1273K) the radius must decrease of 11%. Thusly, you can see that a mere 100-degree increase in temperature requires a much larger change in radius that desirable. 100 degrees might net you some good energy on the inflow, but it will also increase the energy of the outflow. The difference might be 2%, which is a negligible gain.

Ideal gas formula:

PV=mRT
PV/T = constant
P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2 which yields the equations:

V2(T1) =(T1+100)*P1*V1 P1, P2, V1 known

and
P2T1
P2(T1)=(T1+100)*P1*V1 P1, V1, T1 known
T1*V2

Conclusion: more exhaust pressure is not as desirable as you’d like to think. As you will read, with forced induction you fit the exhaust size to the maximum torque output of the engine. Exhaust/intake pressure rations can be observed also. The effectiveness of aggressive valve timing can be absolutely eliminated if the exhaust pressure ratio is high. More on that later.

Now back to the turbo spool comparison:

There are two reasons to argue a single vs. twin turbos. If you compare the mass moment of inertia for a solid disc, you get 1/2*m*R2 on the axial axis based at the center of the circle (fig. 1) (call this z) and 1/4*m*R2 on the radial axis (x and y). For a circular cone (or circular cone section), the mass moment of inertia is 3/10*m*R2 along the axial axis centered at the center of the base circle (fig. 2), is 3/10*m*R2. The same is true for a cone sectioned by cutting it along the z axis with a plane parallel to the XY plane. Now observe the mass. In such a cone, with a constant density and a constant trim turbine wheel, the relationship of radius to mass is:

trapezoid: A = H*(R1+R2)
trapezoidal cylinder (frustum of right circular cone): V = pi*H*(Ra2 + Ra*Rb + Rb2)/3
Trim of turbine wheel: [inducer/exducer]2 =(I/E)2 = I2/E2
for the frustum, call the inducer Rb and the exducer Ra.
mass = volume * density
so, M1/M2 = (V1*p)/(V2*p)
with equal density, M1/M2=V1/V2




Now lets double the size of the turbine wheel (since trim is equal, the exducer doubles as well as the inducer.

V1= pi*h*(E12 + E1*I1 + I12)/3
V2= pi*h*(E22 + E2*I2 + I22)/3
set I2=2*I1 and E2=2*E1 ::
V2= Pi*h*(4E12 + 2*E1*2*I1 + 4*I12)/3
so M1/M2=V1/V2=>cancel terms =>(1+1+1)(4+2*2+4) = (3/12)=1/4

Thusly, doubling the radius results in4 times the mass.



This roughly simulates a turbine wheel, as close as simple calculations will go. Now if you take 1 large wheel and two small ones of half the diameter you get 1/4 + 1/4 = 1/2 versus 1. It is half the mass. This becomes even more important when you implement the mass moment of inertia. For a frustum of a right circular cone (solid of revolution of a trapezoid), the mass moment of inertia is 2/10*m*R2

If R2 is 2* R1, and hence mass 2 (large turbo) = 4*mass 1 (smaller turbo), then

I1= 3/10 * m1 * R12 and
I2= 3/10 * 4*m1* (2R1)2 = 3/10*4*m1*4*R1 = 3/10*16*m1*R1

So I1/I2 = 1/16. That means the large single turbo has 16 times the inertia. Inertia is the property of mass that is defined as “resistance to change in movement”. Like the old saying goes: “An object in motion tends to stay in motion, and object at rest tends to stay at rest”.

This makes single turbos look slow and laggy. But wait, there’s more.

Lets talk efficiency. Tolerances in a turbo are pretty much the same regardless of size. What this means is that the error can be twice as much area, which can be twice the percentage of error. This affects smaller turbochargers a lot m