Telion

No worries your not thread pooping, and believe me anyone who knows me knows I love building on a budget, and this project will be no different even with the twin setup and to be honest I have been comparing the price difference between twins and single turbos and really the difference is only a factor when you go with more expensive turbos, or double up on expensive blow off valves and wastegates, but if you stick to a budget (without cutting corners, bend but don't cut) then I would imagine this will be done at a fairly decent price, unless I end up having to get a stand-alone but the goal is not to just for that reason. Shopping and pricing ahead of time helps too.

I don't wanna comment too much on getting the ECU to support it in part because I don't know to what degree this will be successful other than to say that it has been done on a stock ECU so it should be a go. Great question, sorry for the vague answer. I will also be the first to admit I know very little about the AEM EMS but this would be the direction I would suggest going if you were to get a stand alone simply because there are members here with it who would be likely to assist you in troubleshooting or getting you started.

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GrumpySteelMan

As far as the compressor side of a turbo goes it is airflow and pressure ratio. A small turbo can create a high pressure ratio (boost) but at a much lower airflow (CFM, Lb/min, etc). So the idea is that two small turbos create the same pressure ratio and then you add their airflows together.

Two internally gated turbos whether the exhaust is merged or not share the intake tract and manifold. This is where they get the 'signal' for the wastegate actuator. So assume turbo 1's WG is set at 7psi and turbo 2's WG is set at 9psi. Once the boost passes 7psi and reaches 9psi the first turbo is running at reduced efficiency because the wastegate is closing in an attempt to regulate the boost pressure to 7psi, which isn't possible because of the second turbo.

Once again, the post was more of a physics lesson than an applicable write-up.

You probably want to keep the piping diameter on the small side and make sure to use heavy gauge pipe for the inlets. I would suggest 2.5" from each header and an X-pipe pre-turbo if packaging allows for it. I'd also consider wrapping those pipes, since you'll have relatively long runs between the engine and the turbos. You need to keep the temperature up!

3" for the exhaust side is probably about right.

This is a reasonable point. In some cases there are those that run smaller pipe diameters between the collectors and the turbos if there is a noteworthy distance between the two. Increasing the piping area on the far side reduces the temperature...and that's probably an oversimplification, but you get it.

Damn Son. That's all I can say.

I think that propaganda started with the Supra guys mainly. A properly set up twin turbo system is much more complex, in planning and execution, in most cases. Except of course if you need to for packaging reasons.

Still a single turbo is less likely to give you an ID-10T error on your engine management, if you don't really know what you're doing.

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reboticon

Oh i see now, about the two turbos having the same wastegate settings. Naturally if they are sharing a common intake then pressure will equalize. So i guess, theoretically, it could be possible with some kind of crazy setup with backflow valves and dual pressure sensors but there would be no reason for any of that, just helps me visualize.

Telion, I hope you do go with the twin turbos, just because if you succeed, that will be an amazing feat of engineering on a budget. I think the whole single turbo being better thing mostly comes from the crazy amount of tinkering you will have to do to get them to work. Adding on 1 turbo is usually enough of a daunting task for most sane people!

Would it be possible to swap in a manual steering rack from a late 80s prelude or whatever honda offered it on? You could relocate the battery for the driver side turbo and get rid of the P/S pump + hoses to make room for the other?

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Telion

Shouldn't be too crazy and I don't think I will need to go to that extent to be honest. At most I will relocate the battery. I ordered the bulk of the piping for the exhaust and the intercooler today. That will be the next step in seeing what I am really working with but as for space I think I will be close to good.

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BUZZARD

It is quite simple really, what we did was use a high precision air regulator. gave each waste gate actuator 10 psi and set with a 0.040 feeler gauge under each waste gate flap.

Our new setup will have pressure sensors on the compressor outlet and two boost control solenoids, the ecu will control each turbo individually.

Chris

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Telion

I have a question, what is teh benefit of having the X-pipe before between the headers and the turbos? Grumps did I understand that correct?

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hybirdgsrlegend

as much as we all love twins telion.. my 2 cents would be to use one big turbo say like a garett 60 trim>?, place it where the ac goes but hey its your car

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Telion

I had considered placing one of the turbos there but then I thought what fun is that I (and everyone else) can see.

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GrumpySteelMan

Yes, you got that correct. Since you're packaging the turbos so close together I would suggest that, if possible, so you'll get even bank to bank distribution of exhaust flow coupled with the smaller diameter pipe your velocity and heat will stay higher. In fact if you could build your pre-turbo y or x-pipe out of heavy schedule 40 (aka weld els) iron pipe, you'd be even better off in the heat department. I would highly suggest that.

Whatever you do, don't merge from the headers into 3" and then split off into the turbo inlets. You'll be wasting tons of heat and velocity with the large diameter tube. You'd be much better off running dedicated 2.25" (2.5" is probably too large) pipes to the inlet of each turbo and then merging afterwards into your single 3" exhaust. If you're going to run a y-pipe at the headers, then I'd run a single 2.5" to the turbos and then y- off from there.

If you'll look at the actual size of the throats in those turbine housings, they're probably 2-2.5 sq in. A 3" pipe has ~7 sq in of area. You see the mismatch here? A 2.5" pipe has an area of ~4.9 sq in. A 2.25" has an area of ~4 sq in. Do you see my argument for a single 2.5" pipe? or twin 2.25"?

Even in NA applications (although mainly odd fire V-8s, not on even fire 90 deg V-6s) the equal bank to bank pressures are important, since the intake manifold is shared, you don't want 3cylinders with more restriction the the other 3, which would affect the cylinder inlet charge and reduce power output...this is nearly the same issue as the wastegate settings. If there is 2psi greater restriction on bank 1 than bank 2, the spent gases will evacuate better on bank 2 and bank 1 will have a more contaminated intake charge. This is really a nit picky thing, for the budget minded guy, you probably should skip the pre-turbo x-pipe idea...but definitely don't y-into anything larger than a 2.5" pipe.

If you go to the 3" pipe off the Y from the headers then neck back down into the turbos you are losing both velocity and heat as compared to twin 2.25" pipes, whether you use an x-pipe or not. Using the x-pipe (or y-pipe) after the turbos won't help equalize bank to bank pressures nearly as well, but thats probably not important for your application.

The turbo exhaust needs to be large after the turbos to increase the temperature (and pressure) differential across the turbine blades.

For example you can run a 3" downpipe, 2.75" from cat to muffler with 2.5" outlet with little to no loss in performance. As the temperature drops the gas becomes more dense and the pipe diameter must be decreased to maintain constant velocity. Of course this is one of those nit picking points. I've done a 4" DP to a 3" full exhaust before, just because I had the pipe and the bends laying around.

Sorry if there are any contradictions... I'm trying to keep your total scope in mind...budget, etc. I tend to get stuck on maximum effort.

60-trim, that's helpful. That could be either a T3, T04E, or a T3/T04E...all radically different turbos.

Go spend your 2cents on your 300whp Legend.

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Telion

Ok while I read can anyone think of what else I need such as oil lines which AN size? And would it be beneficial to get a turbo timer?

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reboticon

The benefit of the x-pipe is to equalize the exhaust pressure on all cylinders AND equilize inlet pressure at the turbos.

So when using twin turbos, lets say they each can push 6psi. Is the wastegate going to be set to 12psi, assuming you are using one intake for both?

edit: eh started posting before grumps long explanation showed up.

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GrumpySteelMan

Wrong. 6psi would be the total pressure unless you're doing compound turbocharging...and that's a totally different deal altogether. As I said, each turbo would make the same pressure but you would have double the airflow.

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Telion

Get stuck because I wanna here best case to budget and choose from there!

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GrumpySteelMan