What Would You Like to See Next from Blackend Motorsports? - Page 7

mrkeith · 07-25-07, 01:05 PM

Make a six-point under chassis brace to stiffen the front end.

kotetu · 07-25-07, 01:07 PM

Christian, how would traction bars help us? I am having a hard time picturing how the diff could twist when it is mounted to the engine. Are you saying we get axle wrap from the engine twisting?

*Dv8* · 07-25-07, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kotetu

Christian, how would traction bars help us? I am having a hard time picturing how the diff could twist when it is mounted to the engine. Are you saying we get axle wrap from the engine twisting?

Not sure how your picturing traction bars working.
Traction cars for FWD cars I'm familiar with bolt to the radiator support/sub frame and have arms that then bolt to the lower control arms. Naturally there are adjustments within the arms. The idea is to minimize control arm up and down forcing the tires to stick to the pavement.

People here that eventually do a 3.5 or some sort of F/I and don't realize that launching with anything other than big drag radials or slicks for traction are in extreme denial. As much as we all want turbos or superchargers, unless were already rolling the tires will just got up in smoke. I know, I just bolted some Faulken RT-615 245 45 17 and I still have major launching issues N/A.

Here's a quick example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Traction-Bars-94-01-Integra-92-95-Civic-1996-2000-Civic_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ42609QQihZ017QQit emZ270148446477QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

~Dv8

kotetu · 07-25-07, 02:13 PM

When I did a search for traction bars, almost all of the discussion was about RWD or AWD vehicles - they said the traction bars corrected axle wrap (also called spring wrap), which was when the rear diff twisted and caused the axles and other suspension parts to flex (picture an S shape). The traction bar mounted on the chassis and the diff or rear axle and reduced the flexing.

If it's on a FWD vehicle, I can't see that S twisting happening. If it's to keep the wheels planted, as you said, isn't that what the front springs are for? It seems like stiffer springs up front would accomplish that - what's the difference in the effect of the springs vs the traction bar?

Alperovich · 07-25-07, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kotetu

If it's on a FWD vehicle, I can't see that S twisting happening. If it's to keep the wheels planted, as you said, isn't that what the front springs are for? It seems like stiffer springs up front would accomplish that - what's the difference in the effect of the springs vs the traction bar?

plus brian should be focusing on parts that the majority of ppl will need. i mean, how much R&D will goto something like this but noone here really needs it. sounds pointless to me, i'd rather see him just put out something F/I then worry about traction bars.

kotetu · 07-25-07, 02:55 PM

Oh I am not arguing against them, persay, just want to know what the benefits are vs stiffer springs in a FWD car.

I've already been pushing Brian on several parts, as he well knows.

Blackend · 07-25-07, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kotetu

I've already been pushing Brian on several parts, as he well knows.

Don't I ever?

*Dv8* · 07-25-07, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kotetu

When I did a search for traction bars, almost all of the discussion was about RWD or AWD vehicles - they said the traction bars corrected axle wrap (also called spring wrap), which was when the rear diff twisted and caused the axles and other suspension parts to flex (picture an S shape). The traction bar mounted on the chassis and the diff or rear axle and reduced the flexing.

If it's on a FWD vehicle, I can't see that S twisting happening. If it's to keep the wheels planted, as you said, isn't that what the front springs are for? It seems like stiffer springs up front would accomplish that - what's the difference in the effect of the springs vs the traction bar?

No. A stiffer spring (i.e higher spring rate) increases the chance of wheel hop, poor ride quality etc. FWD or RWD; the drive wheel suspension needs to be softer than stiffer so that the rebound doesn't get twitchy or violent.
These traction bars for FWD, bolt to the front of the car and lower control arms and naturally control movement of the lower control arms downward towards the pavement. Combine that with suspension that allows the wheel enough free travel; the wheel will plant with minimal rebound and stick.
Different driving styles requires different setups. Traction bars are notorious for out of the hole launches, so mostly drag type racing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alperovich

plus brian should be focusing on parts that the majority of ppl will need. i mean, how much R&D will goto something like this but noone here really needs it. sounds pointless to me, i'd rather see him just put out something F/I then worry about traction bars.

It probably isn't going to be a big seller, I was just throwing something out there, like I did with the engine damper.
F/I?
Please let's not get ahead of ourself here. This community cant even produce headers let alone a turbo kit that works.

~Dv8

Blackend · 07-25-07, 04:29 PM

I see that piece being fairly simple to engineer, just because there's not too much to it. We are waiting on a meeting with our fabricator so we can see exactly what we're able to produce.

The main bar attaches to the front, and the bars with the heim joints attach to the lower control arms right? The heim joint is there to allow some articulation but not that much, but it looks like it wouldn't have that much effect on wheel hop (up and down motion) since it attaches with heim joints that would allow a pivot up and down. It appears more to help with front to back motion like Aaron was talking about with axle wrap.

whats77inaname · 07-30-07, 07:41 PM

http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/z10/

Z10 was the first company that came out with traction bars that were any good. Back in the day when I had my Toda-powered del sol, I arranged a group buy for them in which I got 10 people to sign up and got my set free

There was a HUGE difference when trying to hook up. Like Christian said, wheel hop is eliminated. I loved it on the track, and the front end felt more "connected" as well.

Blackend · 07-30-07, 10:24 PM

I'm still not getting how they eliminate wheel hop (up and down) when they freely travel in those directions...

What I've kinda figured out is when looking at a car's drivers side front wheel during launch, the wheel would move to the right just a bit as the suspension flexes and if the other side doesn't move exactly the same that will upset the drivetrain causing drivetrain shock that will make the contact patch uneven causing hopping as the car tries to regain traction. I understand that this bar would eliminate most of the original rearward movement of the wheel due to suspension flex, but if you're not completely hooked up with both tires, you're still going to see some hopping right?

Let me know if I'm completely off base here, or if that is basically how it all works. I don't want to get you guys excited that I may be working on this, because honestly I only figure 5 or so people would be interested in a setup like this MAX and that would drive the price way up just to cover the engineering involved to design it.

kotetu · 07-30-07, 11:59 PM

This is really an install video, but watching him set the preload gives me some idea of how the bar is going to resist up and down motion.

I wonder how that will effect normal driving though.

*Dv8* · 07-31-07, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackend

I'm still not getting how they eliminate wheel hop (up and down) when they freely travel in those directions...

What I've kinda figured out is when looking at a car's drivers side front wheel during launch, the wheel would move to the right just a bit as the suspension flexes and if the other side doesn't move exactly the same that will upset the drivetrain causing drivetrain shock that will make the contact patch uneven causing hopping as the car tries to regain traction. I understand that this bar would eliminate most of the original rearward movement of the wheel due to suspension flex, but if you're not completely hooked up with both tires, you're still going to see some hopping right?

Let me know if I'm completely off base here, or if that is basically how it all works. I don't want to get you guys excited that I may be working on this, because honestly I only figure 5 or so people would be interested in a setup like this MAX and that would drive the price way up just to cover the engineering involved to design it.

Honestly I think youd sell a lot more if people could start launching their Legends at the full stall rate with AT's(2000rpm) and 2500+rpm on a manual with little or no wheel spin assuming tires are good. Imagine getting launches like a rwd. That to me is far better of a result than the engine damper. Of course the price of the damper makes it worth while to most.

More and more members are going manual and more are going 3.5, if its priced right im sure everyone would jump on board. It just has to work.
The Legend has tow hooks on the front that can be removed and replaced with a bar/ tow hook. The control arm has plenty of points to install a custom adapter.

$300 seems like a price to shoot for something like this.

I'm just saying its a possible mod and far more realistic than say a blower or turbo kit.

~Dv8

Blackend · 07-31-07, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dv8

Honestly I think youd sell a lot more if people could start launching their Legends at the full

07-25-07, 01:05 PM	#91 (permalink)
mrkeith dealer-opted track pack Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: look behind you Posts: 3,521 Car 1: ka8 Car 2: chevro-legs iTrader: (2)	Make a six-point under chassis brace to stiffen the front end. __________________ The performance handling machine... If you've got coil-overs, corner-balance them! Please protect our environment: use a high-flow.

07-25-07, 01:07 PM	#92 (permalink)
kotetu we sanction torture Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,917 Car 1: 95 LS Coupe 6spd Car 2: 94 L Cpe 6spd - sold Car 3: 98 Prelude - sold iTrader: (13)	Christian, how would traction bars help us? I am having a hard time picturing how the diff could twist when it is mounted to the engine. Are you saying we get axle wrap from the engine twisting? __________________ Ron Paul's American Freedom Agenda Act would (among other things) restore habeas corpus, end legally sanctioned torture, and end warrantless spying on American citizens. Please tell your representatives to co-sponsor the American Freedom Agenda Act. (link)

07-25-07, 02:13 PM	#94 (permalink)
kotetu we sanction torture Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,917 Car 1: 95 LS Coupe 6spd Car 2: 94 L Cpe 6spd - sold Car 3: 98 Prelude - sold iTrader: (13)	When I did a search for traction bars, almost all of the discussion was about RWD or AWD vehicles - they said the traction bars corrected axle wrap (also called spring wrap), which was when the rear diff twisted and caused the axles and other suspension parts to flex (picture an S shape). The traction bar mounted on the chassis and the diff or rear axle and reduced the flexing. If it's on a FWD vehicle, I can't see that S twisting happening. If it's to keep the wheels planted, as you said, isn't that what the front springs are for? It seems like stiffer springs up front would accomplish that - what's the difference in the effect of the springs vs the traction bar? __________________ Ron Paul's American Freedom Agenda Act would (among other things) restore habeas corpus, end legally sanctioned torture, and end warrantless spying on American citizens. Please tell your representatives to co-sponsor the American Freedom Agenda Act. (link)

07-25-07, 02:55 PM	#96 (permalink)
kotetu we sanction torture Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,917 Car 1: 95 LS Coupe 6spd Car 2: 94 L Cpe 6spd - sold Car 3: 98 Prelude - sold iTrader: (13)	Oh I am not arguing against them, persay, just want to know what the benefits are vs stiffer springs in a FWD car. I've already been pushing Brian on several parts, as he well knows. __________________ Ron Paul's American Freedom Agenda Act would (among other things) restore habeas corpus, end legally sanctioned torture, and end warrantless spying on American citizens. Please tell your representatives to co-sponsor the American Freedom Agenda Act. (link)

07-30-07, 07:41 PM	#100 (permalink)
whats77inaname Renaissance. Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tx Posts: 3,638 Car 1: 91 5MT LS, 300k Car 2: 91 5MT LS, 183k Car 3: 03 G35 sdn (wife's) iTrader: (22)	http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/z10/ Z10 was the first company that came out with traction bars that were any good. Back in the day when I had my Toda-powered del sol, I arranged a group buy for them in which I got 10 people to sign up and got my set free There was a HUGE difference when trying to hook up. Like Christian said, wheel hop is eliminated. I loved it on the track, and the front end felt more "connected" as well. __________________ "Game recognize game and you looking kinda unfamiliar right now"....

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07-30-07, 11:59 PM	#102 (permalink)
kotetu we sanction torture Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,917 Car 1: 95 LS Coupe 6spd Car 2: 94 L Cpe 6spd - sold Car 3: 98 Prelude - sold iTrader: (13)	This is really an install video, but watching him set the preload gives me some idea of how the bar is going to resist up and down motion. I wonder how that will effect normal driving though. __________________ Ron Paul's American Freedom Agenda Act would (among other things) restore habeas corpus, end legally sanctioned torture, and end warrantless spying on American citizens. Please tell your representatives to co-sponsor the American Freedom Agenda Act. (link)