z00m

aight, but how low would it have to be to starve the pump of oil?

btw, i just parked my car on a hill so that it would definitely get oil to the pump and it didn't make a difference in the ticking

i determined the location of the pump to be toward the back "passenger" (in relation to car) side of the pan
i based that on the video that hotlegend posted in the DIY section

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Cruz'nLegend

Oh, yeah! That could definitely be the problem! However, if it's not, and given that you've already tried all the additive fixes, here's the proper procedure for diagnosing the problem:

1) Pull the oil press. sensor and check the oil pressure with the engine warm (after the oil pan fix, of course!). Specs are a MINIMUM of 20 psi at idle and a range of 72 to 82 psi @ 3,000 RPM (and I'd do this after the pan fix in any event). If you have less than specs pull the oil pump and inspect it per the manual (http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/LegendC...sg000/5-74.pdf ).This is a fair amount of work as the o/pump is on the front of the engine and the pickup inside the pan, so you have to R&R the timing belt, oil pan, oil pan baffle, oil pass pipe, and pickup in order to pull the pump off the front of the crank. But the hardest part is the t/belt and if you can do that the rest is merely a time-consuming cake walk. The point being that with inadequate oil pressure you'll get some ticking even with new HLA's. Oh, yeah; if you suspect some rod or main bearing wear, which can also lower oil pressure (i.e.; the oil pump checks out OK per the manual even though you have low pressure), with the pan off it's pretty easy to pull a couple of caps and plasti-guage 'em. If you have low pressure, the oil pump checks OK per the manual, and the rods and mains plasti-guage OK, replace the oil pump anyway as it's the probable culprit despite the OK specs.

2) If you do have proper oil pressure use a stethoscope or other listening device to try and isolate which bank the noise is coming from and whether it's exh or intake valves. It's usually the exhaust valves, and usually on the rear head (more heat). Adjust the exhaust valves per the manual (http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/LegendC...sg000/5-20.pdf ).
The valve train on the exhaust side is quite a bit longer and more complex (greater weight and more wear surfaces) than the intake side and is exposed to a lot more heat so it will tend to wear more, leaving you with clearance that the original setting may not be able to compensate for -- which is exactly why Acura provided the adjustment (go figgur, eh?). While most folks think the exh valve face and seat also wear faster tending to compensate for the valve train wear somewhat, the exh valves are made of sturdier stuff than the intakes for precisely this reason and in my experience it's unusual for seat/face wear to equal the valve train wear, especially on the rear bank. And even if one discounted the higher heat resistance of the exh valves the length and reciprocating weight of the G1 exhaust valve train would ensure that valve train wear would exceed seat/face wear in most cases, especially when the engine has been operated at higher RPM's a lot (which, generally speaking, means manual trans cars more than autos). IMO, with 120,000+ miles on it the exh valve adjustment should be checked in any event, and certainly sooner if the valves are clattering. And while you're at it don't forget to check the side play between the rockers and rocker shafts (oil heat breakdown from heat, esp. on the rear bank) as worn rockers can cause noise even if the HLA's are perfect!

If you're sure that you have adequate oil pressure and that the exh valves are adjusted properly, pull the HLA's and soak them for at least 24 hrs in some form of varnish remover (carb cleaner, kerosene, etc.). After the soak depress the plunger repeatedly while still in the solvent, then do the same in clean motor oil 'till you're sure you've got all the solvent out (use slow easy pressure so as not to engage the check ball). Then check the HLA per the procedure listed in the online manual's cyl. head section (same addy as above). Many of the HLA's I've seen replaced as "worn-out" -- from many different cars, not just Acuras -- have merely had plugged oil holes that "clean while you drive" concoctions haven't unplugged! One warning: do NOT use compressed air directly on the oil hole, nor IMO even a wire, as the objective is to dissolve the gunk rather than push it inside where it can stick the check ball or, worse, create a bullet flying around the room! Also, be sure to use the pre-lube and startup procedures prescribed in the manual.

Granted this can be a lot of work, and hopefully it IS just your oil pan (cross fingers and toes!). But if it's not the pan and you have the time, the tools, and are handy with a wrench it can save you a lot of money and it's something you can do in your own garage or driveway. And other than seals and gaskets the biggest expense is likely the oil pump at $132 OE (at acuraparts.net) or $94 aftermarket (EAP). And even if you do end up having (or more likely *choosing*) to replace some HLA's you'll know exactly which ones instead of the excessive expense of doing them all!

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1990 L Coupe
white w/tan lthr
Michelin Pilot XGT's
185K and purrfect!

z00m

frustration has been greatly increased since the forum has gone down

i changed oil to 20w-50 and it still ticks.. quite loudly at times i might add, and then not so loud other times. i put 5.5 qts in and that seemed to quiet it down some, making me assume that the oil pan was dented and starving the pump of oil.. but now its ticking worse than before and i'm mad. i got an oil light momentarily today while cruising, it blinked for a few seconds then went out

the main ticks are coming from the rear valves on the left-mid part of the engine

if the valves did need adjusting that bad.. would having a thick oil not affect the ticking? i have almost 200k on this engine btw


get back with me plzzz

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1_Hot_Legend_LS

Ok, zoom, you should read into it a lil more! It's not how many detergents but what detergents. Trans fluid does help but you have to use the Ford Type F tranny fluid! and don't just Idle it for 10 min and drive it for five. Do a complete oil change with new filter omitting 1 qt of engine oil for 1 quart of ATF type-F. Now drive it till it's time for another oil change. I will warn you tho, use 5w-30 oil while the tranny fluid is in there. Tranny fluid is the same viscosity as 5w-30. I did this on my Chevy cause there was about a 1/4 inch of sludge under the valve covers, after the ATF type-F treatment there was none!

Also, wanna know why you seem to have oil pressure problems now? You are using too thick of an oil, depending on what year your car is it is 15 - 19 years old and the oil pump is not as strong as it used to be. So now you are taking an old oil pump made for 10w-30 motor oil and running 20w-50 thru it. Your asking for oil pump failure, which sounds like it's coming soon!

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Thank You,

L. Downes
O-Town Legends C.C.
Winter Haven, FL

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Cruz'nLegend

Sorry, but I have to disagree. The oil pump -- especially an old, worn one -- will produce better pressure with thicker oil. It just won't produce as good a flow, especially when cold. And thinner oil with better flow is what the HLA's need, and that need is even greater if the oil feed hole is restricted and/or the check ball sticky. So you ended up with the right conclusion (Zoom needs thinner oil, preferably synth) but for the wrong reason.

You're right about the ATF though, Hot Legend, as it needs to be Type F and it should stay in for at least 500 - 1000 miles, and sometimes 1500 to 2000 if the engine is severely varnished up. However, if the oil gets really dark sooner or you start burning oil a lot faster than normal, Zoom, then change it and the filter and add the ATF again. After you're done with the cleaning cycle run fresh oil for 500 miles and do an oil and filter change, run it for 1000 to 1500 and change it again, then resume normal oil change intervals. I used this procedure very successfully on early-model Civic and Accord CVCC engines that had stuck oil control rings. Typical results were oil consumption going from 150 or 250 miles per quart with smoking to 1500 miles per quart with no smoking and sometimes as high as 2000 or 2500 miles per quart, which was exceptional for the old CVCC engines with miles on them. But those engines had manual valve adjustment rather than HLA's.

Normally I'd be hesitant to recommend the ATF trick on an engine with HLA's as it has a much higher risk of loosening larger particles that can complicate things. But having already tried Auto-Rx, Zoom, the risk of that is reduced and your need of a solution is greater. I'd still recommend an oil pressure check and valve adjustment though -- check out the full diagnostic procedure and explanation of causes I'm posting as it's own thread.

__________________
1990 L Coupe
white w/tan lthr
Michelin Pilot XGT's
185K and purrfect!

z00m

alright, I am going to have my oil pressure checked and from there I'll take the results and either 1) fix the oil pan, or 2) adjust the exhaust valves. I had ticking with 0w-30 GC as well, that was the last oil I ran before I threw in this 20w-50. Does that tell you anything more?

Also, my engine doesn't smoke, leak or burn (as far as i know) any oil at all right now. Do you think that the atf treatment is the way to go.. versus kerosene? I guess it doesn't really matter right now, seeing as I might get to avoid any further engine cleaning after I see the results of my oil pressure check.

Thanks

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old school

z00m

my mother is at a point where she's tired of me messing with my car, so the other night she decided to tell me her mind.. she wanted me to sell my car asap and get another one, one that'll just get me around throughout college, and i told her that i'd made up my mind that i was just gonna fix the tick and keep my legend (because it'd be a car i didn't want, and i'd lose a lot more money than if i just kept my car and lived with it). she knew about the oil pan and exhaust valve adjustments not being a sure fix for the ticking and i'd also mentioned before how cheap a new engine was.. so after she got off of the topic of trying to convince me to get rid of my car, she switched to just swapping the engine and that being the end.

after about a short 5 minute conversation i finally decided that that might not be a bad idea, because even after i fix my lifters, who knows what else in the engine is going to be (or probably already is) 'worn' down as well. i realized that if i got a new engine i could most definitely sell the car faster (in the future.. down the road from now), and it'll run much better until i do so (of course)

the cost was what kept me from doing it before.. but now i finally am doing it. I ordered a JDM C27a off of eBay from a store called JDM Xchange. I paid $450 for the engine and shipping from Philadelphia to here was about $165. so.. the engine is going to be here tomorrow.

My father has been calling around to local mechanics to see who sounds truly up to the task and what their prices are. We have a sure-fire Honda/Acura mechanic who has experience with swapping in the JDM's, and he's a real by-the-book kind of guy. He said that an engine swap calls for about 18hrs of work, and that's $1,060.. not including miscellaneous things that might need changing.

My engine is going to need several parts swapped off of it, such as my new timing belt, water pump, and my relatively new belts. I was hoping to be with whoever is doing the swap, for learning experience as well as maybe lending a hand to whoever is doing it. This independent specialist sounds like one who would let me be his assistant during the swap, but his price seems quite high to me..


Lots of reading, but hey.. it's an end to my drama.. :p What do you guys think that an engine swap should cost?




Btw, if you're wondering about the engine I ordered, here is some more info.
20k-50k not rebuilt
Removed from a Legend in Japan
Compression tested in Philadelphia by the guy
Leak tested
Warrantied for 6 months
Will pay for any parts that need replacing (within 6 months I believe)

You might be wondering why a Legend in Japan would be sitting around with less than 50k on the motor.. I was too. Here is what he said:
There are 2 reasons why they have low mileage.
1. Accident Cars
2. Registration Laws
The economy is run by the automotive industry in Japan, Why re-register your car after 3 years when the cost of a new one is less than half of what it costs here! Call for more detailed explaination.

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old school

GREYLEGEND

Make sure you do an RX on the new engine and use synthetic afterwards.

While the newer engine is on the ground, replace the rear coolant lines with new ones. You'll need the old rear valve cover as JDM engines didn't have oil temp sensor switches.
Check all your engine mounts, change/check alt, ps, ac belts. PCV valve.

From your old engine store/keep the TB, temp sensors (3) , distributor body, alternator, starter, EGR valve. Put your stock airbox/filter back on, if you want your engine to have a long life.

z00m

thanks for all the tips, if u think of any more be sure to mention them.

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old school