Pinyix

Best write up ever. Forever this thread will be immortalized to the passing n00bs that ask why the legend wasn't RWD. Thanks for takin the time.

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I think OEM is the best look. I just don't happen to think any of the various arrangements of OEM got it exactly right all at once

 

legendtype2

I guess I'll be different and I got flame suit on. I don't care about physics and still prefer RWD especially on bigger cars and legend is not comparable to civics.

EDIT:
Convince me why NASCAR and INDY races cars are not fwd. There must be good reasons why they are not. And I'm pretty sure they are working with people with PhD in physics. FWD cars are good upto a point. Once hp gets enormous and size of the car get big it's better in RWD/AWD setup

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B+O

NASCAR, for one, I was involved in, and know a few people in NASCAR...

The reason they're still RWD is because 1. up until early this year they still used the floor board of a 65 IMPALA, and they still used the Rear suspension setup from a 67 Ford F100 pickup truck (no bullsh*t)...wonderful to hear huh? Old technology. The main rule in NASCAR is Keep it the way it was. I mean damn, they still rolled 358 small blocks with carburetors and 4spd manual transmissions.

There's your Reason for NASCAR

For INDY and Formula 1, look at all the crap they banned then allowed, then banned then allowed to keep the F1 cars safe...Traction contol being one of them Hell even some slick teams in NASCAR fit traction control... FOR WHAT REASON!?! to stabilize cornering. since with that much power it's easy for the cars to loop around, OR you lose time trying to keep it going around the corner because you can't get on the throttle soon enough.

Now don't get me twisted, Every drivetrain has its ups and downs. RWD just has more downs than ups. BUT for some reason, it's the one on the WHEATIES box, wherein it's not even the RWD that makes any fast car, it's the setup.

BTW, What'd i say about Power and Weight? nothing matters other than grip. you get enough tire under a car and it'll handle. And let it be known, i'm not saying FWD>* if you start saying that your argument will instantly get ignored because 1. you didn't read, and 2. you're putting words in my mouth

Also, i'm not here to change your preference, i'm stating facts. If you like it, you like it, but now you know why you like it, and it's not because some random Joe Blow just told you it was better. You just like it because that's your taste.

Dave C ver2.0

Wrong in some many ways. Just ignore weight distribution and polar moment of inertia. FWD is a packaging technology.

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FF Drifter

Was looking through my old Car and Driver magazines and saw this very relevant article. I'm adding my own emphasis in italics:

Slowly but surely, horsepower is killing front drive

http://www.caranddriver.com/article...5&page_number=1
The Steering Column
Slowly but surely, horsepower is killing front drive.
BY CSABA CSERE
July 2004


There seems to be considerable trepidation in some Detroit circles about the switch from front- to rear-wheel drive in cars such as the Chrysler 300, Dodge Magnum (replacing the Intrepid), and Cadillac STS. And if we believe our spies, most future big sedans from the Big Three will propel themselves via their rear wheels.

Some critics view this switch as little more than a fashion statement, much like raising or dropping the hemline of a woman’s skirt, and designed to juice sales by giving advertisers something to talk about. Others don’t want to lose front-wheel drive’s traction advantages in winter and fret about fishtailing down snowy city streets with a rear-driver. Some even worry about losing the slightly lighter weight and more efficient packaging available with front drive.

Given the enormous expense of replacing a front-drive car with a rear-drive one, no car company would do it just to provide the marketers with a new talking point. On the other hand, a discussion of front drive versus rear drive in slippery conditions is more relevant. There’s little question that by placing between 60 and 65 percent of a vehicle’s weight over its driving wheels, front drive develops more traction than does rear drive—unless the rear-drive car happens to be a Porsche 911. The only thing better is four-wheel drive, which puts 100 percent of a vehicle’s weight on its driving wheels.

Adding traction control into the equation doesn’t alter this traction pecking order. However, traction control does ensure that a vehicle makes the most of its available grip and helps a clumsy driver from losing control because of wheelspin.

Remember, though, that the definition of traction is grip that allows acceleration. Grip for cornering and braking is completely different, and there’s no evidence that front drive provides any advantage in these areas during winter driving. Electronic stability-control systems make the most of the available grip regardless of which wheels are driven, but if you really want secure winter handling, you need to change to snow tires. Four snow tires will improve traction as well as braking and cornering grip to the point where the winter merits of front and rear drive are rendered irrelevant.

Once we get away from the slippery stuff, rear drive has traditionally displayed better handling because it splits the duties of steering, cornering, acceleration, and braking more equitably among the four tires.

During acceleration, for example, although front drive provides more traction the instant you press the throttle, that advantage diminishes as soon as the car begins to accelerate. This action is caused by the inertia of the car’s center of gravity that is about a foot and a half above the pavement. Commonly called “weight transfer,” this effect on an Acura TSX, which has about 60 percent of its weight on its front wheels when standing still, shifts more than 300 pounds from its front to its rear wheels under hard acceleration in first gear.

The BMW 325i, similar to the TSX in size and performance, has a nearly 50/50 weight split. When accelerating, it undergoes a similar front-to-rear load transfer. But whereas traction in the TSX decreases about 20 percent under hard acceleration, in the 325, it increases by a similar amount.

Under braking, a similar load shift occurs, only this time it’s from the rear tires toward the fronts. With a front-drive car, this means that during maximum braking the front tires might be doing more than 80 percent of the stopping. A more even distribution of braking force would be beneficial, which is why rear-heavy cars such as Porsche 911s always stop very well. Obviously, the forward weight bias of front-drive cars is not helpful.

Nor does it help in cornering, where an equal weight distribution works best. In fact, since so much cornering takes place in combination with some acceleration, a rearward weight bias is advantageous, particularly when combined with larger rear tires. A mid-engine layout provides this configuration, which is why it is chosen by all race-car builders when the rules permit.

Okay, most of us are not exploring limit handling on the street, but we’re all familiar with the many ways that applying power can corrupt the steering feel of front-drive cars. Torque steer is the classic problem, causing the steering wheel to twitch in your hands while the car pulls in one direction or the other when you press on the gas. Equal-length half-shafts going to the front wheels have largely eliminated this problem, but others remain.

During hard acceleration in the lower gears, front-drive cars often lose some directional stability and are easily deflected by bumps, dips, and crowns in the pavement. Rear-drive cars can fishtail when they lose traction, but front-drivers often “fishhead” under the same circumstances.

In corners, particularly slow ones, many front-drive cars lose self-centering under power. The driver can’t easily tell whether this is a front-drive effect or an impending loss of grip. In some cars, such as the Dodge SRT-4, you can let go of the wheel completely in midcorner under power and the steering wheel doesn’t move a degree. And when a limited-slip differential is employed in a front-driver, these effects are sometimes amplified as the diff decides which wheel to favor with power.

Despite these flaws, we’ve found many front-drive cars over the years with terrific handling. But this was years ago, when power was more scarce than it is today.

The first VW GTI sold in America—back in 1983—had all of 90 horsepower and needed 9.7 seconds to get to 60 mph. When Chevrolet introduced its front-drive Celebrity mid-size sedan in 1982, its most powerful engine was a 2.8-liter V-6 with 112 horsepower. That Celebrity replaced the rear-drive Malibu with a standard 3.8-liter V-6 making 110 horsepower. With only a piddling 112 horses, it didn’t matter which end of the Chevy was driven.

But today, Honda Accords and Nissan Altimas come with 240-hp V-6s, and 300-hp luxury sedans are everywhere. At these power levels, front-drive has reached the limit of its competence.

I don’t even want to think about driving a 340-hp Chrysler 300C Hemi V-8 delivering power through its front wheels. In the end, you can have either front drive or plenty of power. But you can’t have both.

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B+O

the self centering and torque are traits of FWD, just as knowing when the tailend is about to go out, you can tell which is which, I'm not buying it. There's handling characteristics particular to both drivetrains. The handling characteristic is mostly seen while On throttle. Additionally, that's only if the platform is well balanced enough that it comes down to the actual drive wheels.

Polar moment of inertia has little to do with drive wheels. Ballast weights and drive line situation can also be a factor in weight distribution. You can claim that it's the layout, but what does that have to do with that the wheels are actually doing? also, to make it a little easier to understand for those not understanding center of gravity, made it more about inertial rotation about drive wheels. Wrong? partially (there's more to it than just that particular influence), but try and tell me a wheelie is caused solely by the a car rotating on its center of gravity and i'll have to look at you a little funny.

Acceleration i covered, but braking is all or nothing. The Rearward bias is correct with the mid engine layout, but with front engine layouts, exactly how does this equal a better weight shift to the front wheels? I want to see how they calculated 80% of the braking force for the front, and it's different for Rear drive. Is it based on the fact the BMW uses anti-dive geometry?

There's horrible handling Rear Drive platforms as well as Terrible Handling front drive platforms. just like there's wonderful rear drive platforms and wonderful front drive platforms.

That article also reinforced what i said about Grip. to the point that in order to get the best out of ANY car, you need to make the best of the grip.

This doesn't take into account the fact that a lot of Rear drive cars are still front heavy, as well as a lot of AWD cars. There was no caveat mentioned to rear drive cars having a similar flaw in braking. That's the reason brake force is distributed between the axles in similar fashion. come on.


EDIT:

and as i said before, AWD is the best solution for a drivetrain hands down. Correct distribution and allowing each wheel to move loosely (viscous or active differentials) when needed are important.

legendtype2

Another fact is that RWD cars sells better than FWD cars. Would you pay $85000 for a new M5 in FWD platform? I don't think so. Germans know what they're doing. Honda knows what they're doing as well. Since their cars tend to be smaller and lighter I can see why they went mostly with FWD. But I bet almost NOBODY will pay top $$ for any premium sports vehicles such as MB AMG or even ferrari, porsche, other exotics if they offered FWD. If legend was RWD that would've been interesting

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B+O

OOOOHHHHHHHHH! Okay, so that explains why Honda Accord and Toyota Camry are the best selling cars in america....

legendtype2

WEEELLLL let's see... they offer good value but nothing special really. I had 2 camry's... good family cars... nothing special. They don't NEED to be RWD b/c most accord/camry owners don't care about performance. Would you pay 40K for accord if it came with a 350hp v8 in FWD? M5, porsche, ferraris are not best selling cars for obvious reasons

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B+O

That's all i was saying, when you start playing with sales figures, you gotta look at the niche and you gotta look at brand loyalty. You have to look at prestige, and you have to look at historical instances in that companies life. The drive wheels don't particularly give the car a legacy, it's the car's purpose or fit and finish. Look at the Legend, it's looked upon highly by most people who even own Mercedes and BMW. The FWD didn't make or break the car, it wasn't even in the minds of the people who bought the car and enjoyed it.

as an addendum, i wouldn't pay 40 for anything other than an RL. Nothing in this current Worldwide Lineup (all makes and models) even tickles my fancy other than the 05+ RL. "AWD is where it's at" Would i pay for a V8 anything? nothing other than an old Deville, or a Range Rover. V8s don't tickle my fancy.

TonyTheBullet

Example of why 4WD is superior to everything else.

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SLegacy99

Exactly.


In my own expirience, I have few complaints about FWD, but many about rear. I especially don't care for the fishtailing rear end. My bro has an IS300 and it is the most unstable, insecure car I have ever driven. I would not dare speed through S curves in it, because it is so awful.

For me, AWD is everything. The ability to shift power from wheel to wheel and know that if the rear wheels lose traction, the front wheels will make it up with minimal faltering. One thing I hate about 2WD is that if your floor it, you usually have wheel spinnage, thus slowing you down and causing an accident. With AWD you can floor it and GO!

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Pito11213

what your admitting to is inferior driving ability. I have a RWD LS400 that I can hit S-turns on the Jackie Rob expressway doing 60 with no tire squeal. I confirmed it yesturday going to work I actually looked at the speedo this time.

B+O

Off throttle cornering is different than on throttle cornering. Read the original post and all subsequent posts.


Of throttle, you'll be hardpressed to find the different in drive wheels of two well balanced chassis. On throttle is where sh*t starts to happen that can be unstable or stable.

Punch the throttle around that corner at 60mph and see what happens. Off throttle cornering is NOT an indication of which wheels are "better". Watch the S2000 video in the first post as well for a representation of what happens. Inertia kicks the tail one way, while the rear drive wheels help it go continue going that way resulting in a slide that could have caused in a pretty bad spin.

Pito11213

Yo Bang I did and Bentley can testify for me as he was there. I know how to hit the apex of a turn, I know when to accelerate and deccelerate. I tend to not use my brakes so much while doing agressive cornering as I like to use the combo of the gas pedal and downshifting.