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Old 07-31-08, 12:50 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Equal Length, Stainless Steel, Dyno tuned Headers - who's ready?

Do I have your attention? Good. Read on, dear fellow. (or if you are a lazy land lubber just look at the pictures and skip to the end)

I am now in working on building an equal length header for the Legend community.
This headers will be back-purged mandrel bent 18 gauge 304 stainless steel with stainlless steel, CNC laser cut flanges, (specially designed for light weight and optimal flow), and equal length primaries that are designed on the dyno. (Tuned primary lengths!) In addition, the collectors are also custom ground to provide the smoothest transition between the cylinders for optimal gas flow.

Sounds good, but who is going to build it?
I'm working with an extremely talented professional race engineer. He does everything from design and fabrication to electronics. He's done fabrication on racecars for the past decade. From dirt track midget cars to formula cars and even production street cars, he's built headers for all of them. He picked up fabrication by hanging out at Special Projects division of American Honda. There he met and learned from some of the best fabricators and welders in the business.

He was the head fabricator at Cal Poly Pomona for the formula team where he spent 80 to 100 hours a week building the racecars. Later he worked for DC Sports in the R&D department, and gained more experience and insight on how to build collectors and headers. While working at DCS, he built one of the first S2000 headers for production, ran the dynos, and built fixtures for the CNC bender and laser cutters. He and his team also did the turbo manifolds for Adam Saruwatari's 1000 HP turbo NSX (pic) along with prototyping production headers for the latest generation of Civics, Accords and Integra's.

Later he picked up a job in Wisconsin working for King Motorsports building their endurance Integra Type R's. (He enjoyed working first hand with all of the Mugen parts from Japan.) One of his responsibilities was to modify the JDM exhausts to fit on the American catalytic converters; a process which required cutting the flange off, clocking it, shortening the pipes, and welding everything back together. The important part was to maintain the incredibly high quality of the original part.

Since then, he has worked for various race teams and lots of different cars.

Here are a coupe of photos of his work (you can see more pictures here):



Sounds REALLY good, but what about SPECs?
First a note: Following Sr5guy's advice, I will ask Keith to supply his coupe for the build, as this will make the header the most compatible. (automatic 93+ coupes have the tightest fit transmission tunnel, so if it fits Keith's car, it should fit all Legends from 91-95 reasonably well)

Specifications are a little harder to nail down. I am relying on Oliver's experience with header design and dyno tuning to produce the best header for our engine. I did give him my initial request though, which was to produce a header similar to Schuttrp's header. Many of you have not yet seen the header made by Schuttrp. It is an equal length header with 1.5 inch diameter and 28 inch long primaries. Oliver can do this, and further told me that he believes 1.75 inch primaries would be better suited to our 3.2L engines. As I have said, the lengths will be tuned on the dyno.

Here is a photo of Schuttrp's header (you can see more pictures here):


Wait, wait! What about cost and production time?!
I've arranged 3 tiers of cost, depending on how many people buy in. It won't be cheap, but the performance will be exceptional. We'll need at least 5 buyers to put 60% down to get it rolling. This is refundable up until the 5th buyer pays, and at that point, once the process has begun, there will be no refunds. (though you can sell your stake to someone else, if you need to opt out)

Oliver can make the initial 5 headers in approximately 4 weeks. That's it! 4 weeks and we've got headers.

I have here a list of members interested in headers (from Brian's thread), please reply or PM me and let me know if you are still interested, (at this cost) or if you are ready to fork over the cash. I'll be sure to answer all questions ASAP.
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Last edited by kotetu; 10-29-08 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 07-31-08, 01:16 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Erm, ok... couple things.

First, I'll say your energy and enthusiasm is exceptional. It's that kind of attitude that gets top fabricators like Oliver to look at our cars.

Second, not to be rude, but how did I get on a $1700 list without knowing about it until now?

Third, you specifically state he is designing these for a 3.2 litre engine. We all know that the 3.2 OBX headers fit the 3.5, so theoretically, these would also fot a 3.5. However, my question would be this: What kind of flow differences do the two different engines require? Has this been thought of?

I think it's awesome you've got this guy working on our cars, he sounds like one of the best things that's happened to our aftermarket for a long time. However, I personally am not willing to say I'm in on such expensive (though worth it) headers, as my ultimate goal differs from what these headers have to offer (turbo/super).

Best of luck to you, though. I'll definitely be watching.
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Old 07-31-08, 01:26 AM   #3 (permalink)
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To answer your first question - you're not on the list persay, you were on Brian's list. I have now modified the post to show that.

These headers will flow far better than the OBX, and thus if they fit on the 3.5, they will help far more there as well. I am leaving all design research to Oliver, and have provided him data and dynos regarding the OBX header. Christian has posted data regarding his header on the forum over the years, and finally, Schuttrp has a few photos and his design specs available on the forum. This data should help in the design process, and of course the dyno tuning will lock in the victory.
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Old 07-31-08, 01:41 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Ahhh, I understand now. Ok. Yeah, I'm sorry, but I'm just not able to afford a $1020 payment right now, only to tear it off in a year or two.
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Old 07-31-08, 01:46 AM   #5 (permalink)
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No offense by this, but why deal with making NA headers? Why not make some turbo headers for legend? I think you would have plently more interest in those.

But those look amazing
 
Old 07-31-08, 10:46 AM   #6 (permalink)
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trust me i would be into this one but like in blackends thread i just dont have the budget up for this yet from all the mods i have already purchased... if this is around by february then i am down (if there is a payment plan) but for now school, credit cards, and ex girlfriend are what haunts me at the moment but i hope you can get 15 people to be down with it...btw thanks for thinkin of me and i will surely keep in contact
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Old 07-31-08, 11:33 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I'm trying to work out getting it down to $1500 for every level. We'll see how that goes.
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Old 07-31-08, 11:56 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95LegendGS View Post
No offense by this, but why deal with making NA headers? Why not make some turbo headers for legend? I think you would have plently more interest in those.

...
... well let's see here - whats the ratio of NA to turbo legends here on the forum? i'm thinking maybe like 1000 to 1? then you would also have to consider the ratio of people who actually plan on and WILL put a good 3500-7000 or more to get a properly done turbo setup vs. those who want to spend maybe 2-3000 on some nice NA mods that they will be plenty happy with.
don't take that the wrong way bro but can you see why i'm pretty confident that the bigger interest would be in NA headers?
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Old 07-31-08, 06:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95LegendGS View Post
No offense by this, but why deal with making NA headers? Why not make some turbo headers for legend? I think you would have plently more interest in those.

But those look amazing
Make no mistake, this is a big ticket item. However, it's 1/2 the cost of a reasonably well performing turbo, on a well tested, well developed and hugely supported platform like an Integra. You could spend 3x this cost or more developing a similarly performing turbo kit for a Legend.
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Old 07-31-08, 07:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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i know this is just a guess but does the engineer have some range on what one can expect in power increase?
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Old 08-01-08, 08:13 PM   #11 (permalink)
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the gains are very much dependent on all of your other mods. PM me with your current setup and I will try to give you an estimate. Otherwise all I can say is it will be better than the OBX, better than Schuttrp's header, and better than Christian's header. (With much respect to our two members who have already created headers!)
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Old 08-02-08, 02:22 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Hey guys, I wanted to do a price comparison, figuring maybe it would ease some minds about the high cost of the header.

Remember nearly 3 years ago Kenso had his Y pipe made by Dave at SMS. Here's a link to his pricing for a set of 5 stainless steel Y pipes. $600 for the Y pipe, and it was not compatible with stock (or stock length) cat, highflow, or test pipe. I don't think anyone would argue that it is a quality product!
SMS Y-pipe

Also notice that the Y pipe produced VERY similar results to the OBX. This convinces me that the OBX Header itself really does next to nothing. It's gains come from removing the catalytic converters.

OBX and test pipe on my coupe (other mods = stromung cat back before and after)


SMS Y pipe was the only change between these two lines on Kenso's coupe - he had the same test pipe installed both times. (I brightened up the dyno a little for visibility)

Last edited by kotetu; 08-06-08 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 08-02-08, 05:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Added Adam Saruwatari's 1000 HP turbo NSX manifold pic.
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Old 12-18-08, 01:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kotetu View Post
Make no mistake, this is a big ticket item. However, it's 1/2 the cost of a reasonably well performing turbo, on a well tested, well developed and hugely supported platform like an Integra. You could spend 3x this cost or more developing a similarly performing turbo kit for a Legend.
a well working rear mount turbo kit can be had on any legend for about 3-4k depending on welding labor costs, your time and reasearch, and who you are having do tuning. to save on labor you should be able to do a lot of the secondary install work your self (guages, aem fic, etc,...). no one is going to make it easy and tell you what needs to be done and how much each stage is going to cost up front (yet ...)

while the nessasary reasearch and the fact that mistakes can be more costly keep many away, the power gains and top end response of a turbo vs. the regular mix of intake, exaust, headers makes it well worth the cost and down time.
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