Auto theft solution - Page 5

GrumpySteelMan · 05-10-08, 11:32 PM

As I believe I mentioned previously, a properly installed alarm e.g. Viper provides all the protection needed assuming you don't put the alarm brain under the steering column and put the starter kill right at the ignition switch.

The Ravelco is just another wiring defeat with a physical 'key.' The ONLY benefit is that you cannot simply program another remote into the system and gain carte blanche that way. That is absolutely the ONLY gain.

Honestly for the money, pay the installer of your alarm to defeat the main power relay and the fuel pump relay using a N.O. wiring scheme and a couple of relays. Having wiring 'traps' hidden around the car is much better than having your Ravelco with all the wires it affects running to and from it.

If you don't think of theft prevention in these terms, I think you're nuts:

Passive - First and foremost this is non-electronic. Don't leave the windows down, don't leave anything out that attracts attention.

Attention - Have an alarm system with a very sensitive 'warn away' function. I mean if the wind blows, it's gotta chirp. Use a proximity sensor and a tilt-sensor if it is in your budget. If your first fear is the car being stolen, then this is key.

Disable - Make sure the disabling functions on the vehicle are not instantly obvious (like starter kill which has no 'click' noise from the solenoid, i.e. not a bad starter, but a starter interrupt at work). The defeats should have their controlling relays located between the alarm and the defeated part itself, physically so that e.g. the main relay doesn't have a wire spliced in, right at the plug.

Notify - Somebody tries to get in the car, start it, or tow it....let it raise hell. No thief wants to deal with that crap.

Regardless of what anybody says, if they want it bad enough...if they're smart enough...they'll get it no matter what.

GrtOutdoorsAZ · 05-11-08, 02:06 PM

I'm still pretty intrigued by the Ravelco

check out some more info I found

- All connections for Ravelco are made in the engine compartment--none in the cabin or under-dash area.

- the Ravelco can disable any combination of the starter, fuel system, ignition system, or computer system. Even more, on some vehicles the cam or crank sensor can be disabled, too.

- all wiring is black and protected by steel covering...no pattern for hotwiring attempts. some dummy wires are added too and the wires work in pairs...if a thieft starts clipping them, your car wont run

Ravelco Anti-Theft System - GM High-Tech Performance Magazine
GM High Tech Performance article about Ravelco...w/ installation pictures

what I'm gathering also is that while alarms may be just as good, it's the installers that are the problem.

- you said you need multiple hidden traps, etc...am I really going to be able to get an 18 yr old Best Buy or auto accessory store employee to hook it up? I dont even really know what to ask for..."dude, make this system really really good". even if I quoted what you said above on what to do...how would I even know if he did it that way? since I cant install a system, I cant really check a system either I would think

- there are tons of websites that talk about how to remove/disarm Viper alarms...a lot of them talk about color coded wiring

viper car alarm disarm - Google Search

- you guys arent even slightly impressed by the 31 year and nearly 4 million no vehicle stolen track record? how come we dont hear stats about Viper, Clifford, etc? If ONE person out there had their car stolen when armed with a Ravelco, the company would not be able to plaster that fact all over everything they have.

- from a car alarm website:

Quote:

As soon as the thief enters the vehicle all he has to do is find the control module of the alarm system and he has several options at this point. He can simply unplug the control module, or pull the fuse on the red wire to cut power to it. He can also cut the black wire going to the control module (ground) this has the same effect as cutting power. He can also quickly trace the wires to the main harness and easily disable to starter kill that is installed.

Dont I stand a good chance of getting a standard install where things are relatively easy to find, wiring jobs are so-so, some wires are colored, etc?

before Ravelco install

after Ravelco install, can you tell a difference?

GrumpySteelMan · 05-11-08, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrtOutdoorsAZ

- All connections for Ravelco are made in the engine compartment--none in the cabin or under-dash area.

So...the 'key' isn't in the driver's compartment? I imagine it is.

Quote:

the Ravelco can disable any combination of the starter, fuel system, ignition system, or computer system. Even more, on some vehicles the cam or crank sensor can be disabled, too.

This is no different from an alarm disable.

Quote:

all wiring is black and protected by steel covering...no pattern for hotwiring attempts. some dummy wires are added too and the wires work in pairs...if a thieft starts clipping them, your car wont run

You can wire any alarm into the engine compartment. You can run any wires through an armored conduit, you can spray paint any wires black. Don't you think all black wires in an armored cable might be a bad idea? What if you have a bad connection in your Ravelco due to a substandard install, now you're 300 miles away from home, nobody can tell you what wire does what, and you're screwed.

Quote:

what I'm gathering also is that while alarms may be just as good, it's the installers that are the problem.

This is the downfall of any security system. How will you know if your Ravelco disables six vehicle functions or just one? You can't really test them independently...and if you are that savvy you should install your own security system.

Quote:

you said you need multiple hidden traps, etc...am I really going to be able to get an 18 yr old Best Buy or auto accessory store employee to hook it up? I dont even really know what to ask for..."dude, make this system really really good". even if I quoted what you said above on what to do...how would I even know if he did it that way? since I cant install a system, I cant really check a system either I would think

This is the same problem with the Ravelco. You can't be sure what you're going to get. If you take schematics and show them what you want done and where it is, that is the best bet. I wouldn't trust any shop but an independent shop...those Best Buy/Circuit Shitty installers are terrible.

Quote:

- there are tons of websites that talk about how to remove/disarm Viper alarms...a lot of them talk about color coded wiring

A sub-standard install is sub-standard. It would still stop 90%+ of all the types who would still be ballsy enough to try to steal a car that had a siren going off.

Quote:

you guys arent even slightly impressed by the 31 year and nearly 4 million no vehicle stolen track record? how come we dont hear stats about Viper, Clifford, etc? If ONE person out there had their car stolen when armed with a Ravelco, the company would not be able to plaster that fact all over everything they have.

Not even a tiny tiny bit. I used to work in the industry, and if you DON'T use the valet switch function (don't even have it in the car), make sure that the alarm must be powered in order for the 'kills' to be defeated, and put the alarm brain somewhere difficult to reach...it is damn near impossible to defeat the alarm, let alone steal the car, even if you were the installer.

More Ravelco press:

Quote:

On September 25, 2001 in Mexico City, Mexico, the RAVELCO Anti Theft Device was tested by CESVI-MEXICO, a company owned by the seven major insurance companies in Mexico. They tried to hot-wire the most stolen vehicle in Mexico City, a 2002 Nissan Sentra that had a RAVELCO installed on it. The CESVI Company said they would approve the RAVELCO if it passed the 8 minute test. They said no theft device or alarm ever took more than 3 minutes to bypass. After cutting wires and trying for 35 minutes they finally gave up. The next day they had the vehicle towed to a Nissan dealer to get it rewired and able to start! Needless to say the RAVELCO was approved. The RAVELCO is the only anti theft device recognized in Mexico for a discount on your insurance. With over 29 million people in Mexico City alone and nearly 200 vehicles stolen per day, the people at CESVI Company should know what does and does not work when it comes to auto theft. No alarm, tracking system or any other anti theft device is approved in Mexico. Of course this makes us at RAVELCO very proud

NO theft device or alarm took more than 3 minutes? Bullshit. I could let a team of thieves WATCH me install an alarm and they couldn't defeat it in 15 minutes. Even if they took notes.

Long story short, the Ravelco is a fine theft prevention device. It isn't an alarm, won't do what an alarm can, and doesn't do anything an alarm can't. If it comes down to trusting the installer, you're possibly screwed either way.

GrtOutdoorsAZ · 05-11-08, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpySteelMan

So...the 'key' isn't in the driver's compartment? I imagine it is.

yea the key is...but it says it just has a steel backed wrap that goes through the firewall. but all connections are in engine bay

You can wire any alarm into the engine compartment. You can run any wires through an armored conduit, you can spray paint any wires black. Don't you think all black wires in an armored cable might be a bad idea? What if you have a bad connection in your Ravelco due to a substandard install, now you're 300 miles away from home, nobody can tell you what wire does what, and you're screwed.

well in their press stuff, they at least address this as the #2 priority. save your car, insure it always starts when you want it to

This is the downfall of any security system. How will you know if your Ravelco disables six vehicle functions or just one? You can't really test them independently...and if you are that savvy you should install your own security system.

This is the same problem with the Ravelco. You can't be sure what you're going to get. If you take schematics and show them what you want done and where it is, that is the best bet. I wouldn't trust any shop but an independent shop...those Best Buy/Circuit Shitty installers are terrible.

right...so this leads me back to square 1. I cant pay someone else to do the job right?

Good stuff though Grumperama...knowledge is power. I just feel like I could spend $200-$400 for a "good alarm" installed but get a sub-par job that some ex-con can beat in 3 minutes. So why not spend $500-$700 for a decent alarm AND the Ravelco - that was my train of thought anyway.

GrumpySteelMan · 05-11-08, 04:12 PM

I suggest approaching an independent shop, ask for pricing on a standard alarm install.

Then ask them about:

*Mounting the Alarm Brain in different locations. My favorites are near the engine ECU or under the passenger seat. This means most of your wires can be tapped at the ECU and NOT the ignition column, which is standard.

*Two layer theft defeat.

1. Starter kill relay mounted IN THE ENGINE BAY between the starter solenoid and the firewall.

2. Fuel Pump relay defeat

*Two sirens. One in the engine bay and one under the dash or seat, see 'pain generator.'

*Tilt (Jack/Tow) sensor

*Proximity sensor

*Hood Pin Switch

*Battery Backup - I really like the battery backup because if someone disconnects the battery while the system is armed, (i.e. crawling under) the alarm goes off. It also allows the system to continue raising hell which is no fun for them.

Seriously, if you ask for all of those things and the installer doesn't bat an eye, then you're probably in good hands. The only thing I left out would be a glass break sensor, but I'm just not that paranoid. Plus they have to crawl through a broken window or open the door anyway at that point.

kotetu · 05-13-08, 01:42 PM

I just carry my battery around with me when I park the car.

bandoni™ · 05-13-08, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpySteelMan

I suggest approaching an independent shop, ask for pricing on a standard alarm install.

Then ask them about:

*Mounting the Alarm Brain in different locations. My favorites are near the engine ECU or under the passenger seat. This means most of your wires can be tapped at the ECU and NOT the ignition column, which is standard.

*Two layer theft defeat.

1. Starter kill relay mounted IN THE ENGINE BAY between the starter solenoid and the firewall.

2. Fuel Pump relay defeat

*Two sirens. One in the engine bay and one under the dash or seat, see 'pain generator.'

*Tilt (Jack/Tow) sensor

*Proximity sensor

*Hood Pin Switch

*Battery Backup - I really like the battery backup because if someone disconnects the battery while the system is armed, (i.e. crawling under) the alarm goes off. It also allows the system to continue raising hell which is no fun for them.

Seriously, if you ask for all of those things and the installer doesn't bat an eye, then you're probably in good hands. The only thing I left out would be a glass break sensor, but I'm just not that paranoid. Plus they have to crawl through a broken window or open the door anyway at that point.

I like the cut of your jib! I have several of these done on both my vehicles. I should have had it wired to where the ecu is thats a great idea. especially since the legends ecu is under the passenger seat. oh well live and learn.

legend coupe · 05-13-08, 02:12 PM

for the price a good alarm system should be inclulded. Imagine your sleeping and someone breaks in your car, even tho its parked below your window, you have no idea whats going on. Even though the thieft wont be able to move the car, he would still probably rip up your interior and steel your wheels. I cant post pictures of my installation since that is my only defence from car jackers.

This is what my electrician did.
I have a 3 switch combination that you have to get before you can any light in the dash. But then a relay is placed between the reverse and ignition. if the car isn't in reverse the circuit is open meaning no start. all that with a autopage 1mile alarm. I feel very secure with my setup. if you live in the bronx area and want a resonable custom kill swith this is the guy to go to. He works out of his van now because they sold the building his shop was in.

but trust me, when i say this guy knows his shit. he knows his shit.

Vic Cardenas · 05-13-08, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legend coupe

if the car isn't in reverse the circuit is open meaning no start.

I don't know about you M/T guys but my auto legend won't start in reverse.

It will start in neutral.

whats77inaname · 05-13-08, 06:17 PM

As long as the clutch pedal is down, it'll start in any gear *lol*

legend coupe · 05-13-08, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic Cardenas

I don't know about you M/T guys but my auto legend won't start in reverse.

It will start in neutral.

I'm sorry. this only applies to MT. auto wont start. probably if its hooked up to the head lights or brake lights.

Vic Cardenas · 05-13-08, 06:52 PM

Or neutral

Vic Cardenas · 05-13-08, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic Cardenas

I don't know about you M/T guys but my auto legend won't start in reverse.

It will start in neutral.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

As long as the clutch pedal is down, it'll start in any gear *lol*

GrumpySteelMan · 05-13-08, 07:41 PM

That would be aggravating to put the automatic car in neutral before starting...major cool points loss.

I'd just hide a momentary switch that has to be pressed to allow the starter to turn over.

05-10-08, 11:32 PM	#61 (permalink)
GrumpySteelMan Find Em Fuck Em Forget Em Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 983 Car 1: 2004 Nighthawk RL Car 2: 2005 Nighthawk TL Car 3: 2002 525i Sport Wag iTrader: (0)	As I believe I mentioned previously, a properly installed alarm e.g. Viper provides all the protection needed assuming you don't put the alarm brain under the steering column and put the starter kill right at the ignition switch. The Ravelco is just another wiring defeat with a physical 'key.' The ONLY benefit is that you cannot simply program another remote into the system and gain carte blanche that way. That is absolutely the ONLY gain. Honestly for the money, pay the installer of your alarm to defeat the main power relay and the fuel pump relay using a N.O. wiring scheme and a couple of relays. Having wiring 'traps' hidden around the car is much better than having your Ravelco with all the wires it affects running to and from it. If you don't think of theft prevention in these terms, I think you're nuts: Passive - First and foremost this is non-electronic. Don't leave the windows down, don't leave anything out that attracts attention. Attention - Have an alarm system with a very sensitive 'warn away' function. I mean if the wind blows, it's gotta chirp. Use a proximity sensor and a tilt-sensor if it is in your budget. If your first fear is the car being stolen, then this is key. Disable - Make sure the disabling functions on the vehicle are not instantly obvious (like starter kill which has no 'click' noise from the solenoid, i.e. not a bad starter, but a starter interrupt at work). The defeats should have their controlling relays located between the alarm and the defeated part itself, physically so that e.g. the main relay doesn't have a wire spliced in, right at the plug. Notify - Somebody tries to get in the car, start it, or tow it....let it raise hell. No thief wants to deal with that crap. Regardless of what anybody says, if they want it bad enough...if they're smart enough...they'll get it no matter what. __________________ "A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally." -Oscar Wilde 3.5RL With/Without Nitrous Comparo Video

05-11-08, 04:12 PM	#65 (permalink)
GrumpySteelMan Find Em Fuck Em Forget Em Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 983 Car 1: 2004 Nighthawk RL Car 2: 2005 Nighthawk TL Car 3: 2002 525i Sport Wag iTrader: (0)	I suggest approaching an independent shop, ask for pricing on a standard alarm install. Then ask them about: Mounting the Alarm Brain in different locations. My favorites are near the engine ECU or under the passenger seat. This means most of your wires can be tapped at the ECU and NOT the ignition column, which is standard. Two layer theft defeat. 1. Starter kill relay mounted IN THE ENGINE BAY between the starter solenoid and the firewall. 2. Fuel Pump relay defeat Two sirens. One in the engine bay and one under the dash or seat, see 'pain generator.' Tilt (Jack/Tow) sensor Proximity sensor Hood Pin Switch Battery Backup - I really like the battery backup because if someone disconnects the battery while the system is armed, (i.e. crawling under) the alarm goes off. It also allows the system to continue raising hell which is no fun for them. Seriously, if you ask for all of those things and the installer doesn't bat an eye, then you're probably in good hands. The only thing I left out would be a glass break sensor, but I'm just not that paranoid. Plus they have to crawl through a broken window or open the door anyway at that point. __________________ "A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally." -Oscar Wilde* 3.5RL With/Without Nitrous Comparo Video

05-13-08, 01:42 PM	#66 (permalink)
kotetu 33mpg 6spd Coupe Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,537 Car 1: 95 LS Coupe 6spd Car 2: 94 L Cpe 6spd - sold Car 3: 98 Prelude - sold iTrader: (13)	I just carry my battery around with me when I park the car. __________________ Someone stole maracura91's new wheels one day after he bought them. (10/09/2008) This link will search for "Nitto" + "C2" + "Racing Hart" on all of craigslist for the last 24 hours. Click it to help him find his wheels! maracura91's thread Inflation is your friend! I mean really, who doesn't want to own a $100,000 car?

05-13-08, 02:12 PM	#68 (permalink)
legend coupe Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New York Posts: 1,171 Car 1: Honda Accord Coupe 92 Car 2: Mitsubishi Eclipse95 Car 3: Acura legend coupe iTrader: (3)	for the price a good alarm system should be inclulded. Imagine your sleeping and someone breaks in your car, even tho its parked below your window, you have no idea whats going on. Even though the thieft wont be able to move the car, he would still probably rip up your interior and steel your wheels. I cant post pictures of my installation since that is my only defence from car jackers. This is what my electrician did. I have a 3 switch combination that you have to get before you can any light in the dash. But then a relay is placed between the reverse and ignition. if the car isn't in reverse the circuit is open meaning no start. all that with a autopage 1mile alarm. I feel very secure with my setup. if you live in the bronx area and want a resonable custom kill swith this is the guy to go to. He works out of his van now because they sold the building his shop was in. but trust me, when i say this guy knows his shit. he knows his shit. __________________ 6Speed flywheel for sale. $100 takes it.

05-13-08, 06:52 PM	#72 (permalink)
Vic Cardenas Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sandy, Utah Posts: 996 Car 1: 91 Coupe L wht/blk Car 2: 91 Coupe LS wht/blk iTrader: (8)	Or neutral __________________ Modifications: Custom Cold Air Intake, Telion's Type I Stage 2 Chip, Blackend Engine Damper, TB Coolant Bypass, Custom made three point strut brace , EGR Block Plate, Brembo Rotors, EBC Greenstuff pads, Goodridge SS brake lines. 215/45 Nexen n3000's on 17X7 Enkei Evo6's. Auto Climate Control Swap (fully functional), McCulloch 5700k HID's, Alpine 8080 alarm, Moonroof Tilt, F1 Clear Corners, Clear Bumper Lights mod, 160mph cluster, Interior LED swap, Redout Taillights.

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05-13-08, 07:41 PM	#74 (permalink)
GrumpySteelMan Find Em Fuck Em Forget Em Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 983 Car 1: 2004 Nighthawk RL Car 2: 2005 Nighthawk TL Car 3: 2002 525i Sport Wag iTrader: (0)	That would be aggravating to put the automatic car in neutral before starting...major cool points loss. I'd just hide a momentary switch that has to be pressed to allow the starter to turn over. __________________ "A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally." -Oscar Wilde 3.5RL With/Without Nitrous Comparo Video