Failed 'functional' Ca. emission test (EGR) ???

Sean L · 01-23-03, 01:54 PM

I decided to get my Legend registered in California finally--I'm from Florida--(mistake #1), so I went to the local Smog Monkeys (mistake #2), had them do the smog test. Keep in mind that my '94 LS Sedan is bone stock and runs like a Swiss friggin watch.

It passed every test including visual and emissions, but failed the EGR functional test. Apparently the RPM is supposed to drop causing the engine to stall during the EGR function test and my car didn't stall. So they failed me. FWIW, there is no CHECK ENGINE light on or any driveability problem and the EGR valve 'seems' to be functioning.

The idiot who did the test told me that my EGR ports are clogged.

Anyone know if a) this is common/probable and b) what's the easiest fix.

Thanks guys.

wallstrum · 01-23-03, 02:31 PM

sean - i think you'll remember me... i live up in santa rosa. i haven't heard from you in quite a while : ) anyway, i have had a bit of experience in dealing with this exact issue. according to my mechainc, the egr system in *all* of the legends is an inherently poor design, and becomes clogged easily. check this forum thread from a while ago for what i had to say on the topic - i think you'll find most of your answers there: <where is the egr sensor located?>

if you have any other questions, just ask.

wally

Sean L · 01-23-03, 02:40 PM

Hi Wally. Sure I remember you, you had that radio I was interested in....

I've been super busy with work, travel, etc. I finally bought a house in San Ramon (ouch, kinda pricey out here!). Things are good. My Legend is good, I bought a set of 16" TL wheels that I'm planning on installing soon. Or at least I thought my Legend was good until it failed the smog test this morning.

I just talked to a car buddy of mine (we built our supercharged Mustangs together) and he said basically what your post states, remove the EGR valve and clean the system.

I also just noticed that the Legend Maintenance schedule has 'Check EGR System' every 30K miles. That seemed a bit frequently until you just enlightened me.

I'm not the kind of guy to pay someone 3-4 hours labor for something like this, so I will pick up a new EGR valve gasket in the next day or so and take the valve off the manifold Sat. morning and begin the cleaning process.

I will also buy a hand operated vacuum pump and try to simulate the test before re-smogging. I'll post results after I'm done.

I was hoping to have the car smogged today and registered tomorrow so I could get the Florida license plate off the car in case the Raiders lose the Superbowl.... (Go Bucs!)

Thanks,

Merlin the Wrench · 01-23-03, 11:45 PM

I use Earth Station in Citrus Heights for smog, have had two legends done there over 10 years running and no such problem on either. Niello Acura in Sacramento, service manager is Larry Reuters. (916) 334-6300. Call him and ask him what you are looking at. San Ramon to Sacramento is about 1 hour and worth the trip. Niello is the most reliable Acura Service facility in this area. I wouldn't trust many of the others.

95gs · 01-24-03, 09:15 AM

Wallstrum -

do you know what was use to clean the EGR sysytem out???

what would happen if you keep driving w/o cleaning it?

mine would flash engine code 12 only on long distance driving (50 miles plus)

wallstrum · 01-24-03, 12:16 PM

a non-functioning egr system won't hurt the car/engine at all... it is just an emissions thing (egr = exhaust gas recirculation - the system takes some of the exhaust gasses and recycles them through the intake so some of the unburned contaminants get burned up the second time through, making the exhaust cleaner from an environmental standpoint). the egr system is *required* to be functioning properly and not clogged in california - your car has to pass a smog test every year in order for you to renew your registration in california...that is why it is a big deal over here. if yours isn't working and you don't need to pass some sort of emissions test in your state, then i *definitely* wouldn't worry about fixing it. when i had bot of my legends tested with the blocked egr system, the exhaust itself couldn't have been cleaner - it was like 0% carbon monoxide. they were both failed by the mechanic because when he physically tested the egr system to make sure it was working, it was not (basically, using a vacuum pressure reader, they apply a vacuum force to an inlet in the engine bay. if the engine dies, then the egr system is functioning. if nothing happens, then the system is clogged.). let me know if you have any more questions...

wally

Sean L · 01-24-03, 01:16 PM

Wally,

I agree with everything you said. Tomorrow morning I will be removing my EGR valve and spending a few hours cleaning the EGR system.

My car actually passed the 'tailpipe' emissions test, it's a clean running car, HC @ idle was 41ppm, @ 2500rpm it was 7ppm. All other readings were nominal.

So while my car isn't a gross polluter, it failed the smog test.

I wasn't real happy yesterday, but after doing some research and talking to my local Acura specialist (common problem, 4 hours @ $75/per to fix) I am confident that I can fix it tomorrow.

Thanks everyone for your help.

Sean L · 01-25-03, 02:30 PM

I followed some directions provided to me by Nick B, a fellow Message Board Member. everything went well, I removed the EGR valve, inspected it, and cleaned it. Same for the EGR tube
(it was gunked up but not totally clogged). Everything appears fairly very clean now. I even ran some thick 10 or 12 gauge wire deep into the port in the back of the intake manifold to try and clean out some gunk. Worked good, lots of crap came out on the wire, even after several times.

I put everything back together very carefully, took about 2 hours start to finish.

The car fired right up and runs fine, however, I still don't think it's *right*. There doesn't appear to be vacuum present in the line attached to the egr valve??? Could this be a bad solenoid in the egr vacuum hose system? In order to confirm proper egr valve operation, I even connected a vac line from the intake directly to the egr valve and it opened fully immediately. Ok, the valve seems to be working (mechanically), but I without the Helms manual or a troubleshooting guide I am at a standstill here.

Againn, for some reason, there doesn't seem to be any vacuum hitting the egr in the stock configuration the way it's supposed to....

Any ideas on this?

Thanks again for all your help!

Merlin the Wrench · 01-25-03, 02:40 PM

egr valves open under a specific load. Many cars have a design that allows a certain amount of vaccum to bleed off so they close at lower RPM. To test them normally requires running the engine until operating temp and at rpm and being able to physically see if they gently open when the car is held at say 2000 rpm for 20 to 30 seconds. Most shops test them by applying solid vaccum pressure or by hand with gloves on and seeing if the engine RPM's slow. If so then the valve itself is Ok. A small vaccuum pump may not supply enough vaccum if the egr has a moderate bleed port. The EGR valve introduces oxygenless exhaust gasses back into the intake mixture which drops the combusion temps and that drops NOX. Also, EGR is often connected to the engine computer and or temp sensors and will not kick in until the engine reaches full operating temperature.

Page 6-16 and 6-17 of the Haynes manual deals with how to do the test on 92 - 95 Legends and also test the PCM to see if it is the culprit.

Sean L · 01-25-03, 04:11 PM

Thanks Steve. Regardless of what the problem is, I need to order a Helms manual ASAP.

Regards,

Merlin the Wrench · 01-25-03, 04:31 PM

the HAYNES manual is generally available at Pep Boys, Kragens etc. The HELMS manual is pretty pricey. I want one too but they are $$$ and it takes time to get one - plus it isn't one manual for all. You buy the 1993 or 94 and then the supplements for wiring and trans etc. The Chilton book is pretty good for legends because it has all the parts blow ups and torque settings etc. I found the EGR procedure in the HAYNES book and you can buy that locally for usually under $20. It covers 1990 - 1993 Integra and 1991 - 1995 Legend.

Sean L · 01-27-03, 04:46 PM

Merlin-

I went to Pep Boys today at lunch and bought the Haynes manual as well as a hand operated vacuum pump (w/ gauge).

The egr valve testing procedure in the Haynes book is very straight forward.

I tested the EGR valve after my 1/2 hour freeway ride home, so the car was fully warmed up. I pumped it up to 8" of vacuum, and the engine rpms didn't move, let alone try to stall :-(

The egr valve seems to hold vacuum, so I don't know if it's bad or not???

I guess it's possible that I still have clogged egr ports......
meaning I'll have to dig even deeper and remove the housing in the back of the intake that the egr pipe attachs to. I thought I had cleaned everything out pretty good, but I really don't know how I'm going to clean the egr passages within the intake/heads.

Thanks again for all your advice.

Merlin the Wrench · 01-28-03, 02:40 AM

remember that there are two sides to the egr - the side that the burned gases come in from and the side they go to the intake manifold when the EGR oipens. Make sure the side to the exhaust is open too. You should be able to put a plastic piece of tubing up to the cold intake port side or exhaust side when the EGR is off and blow on it to see if it is open or not. Also, before removing it, with a small mirror, see if when you apply vaccum if the pintle moves. If it doesn't then the EGR vlve itself could be frozen. It will be hard to see if it moves but if you look closely you should be able to see it I think if it is like most EGR valves. You can also put gloves on and manually move the EGR I think gently from underneath with you fingers. The gloves are to keep from being burned. If it works when you move it by hand then the passages are open and the EGR is probably frozen I would think.

The best carbon solvent is some stuff made by GM called top cyl cleaner. It is also available in a spray from GM, Jeep and Mercury outboards and can be used to free up things that are carbon bound. It is smelly and you don;t want to get any on the outside of the engine as it will even eat annodizing off - let alone paint etc. Acura used it on the 91-93 Legend to unstick stuck compressions rings. I would think a little sprayed or poured (like no more than a shot glass) in the Intake side of the EGR valve would soften any carbon in there if it sits 2 or 3 hours. As I mentioned earlier - you might want to check with Niello.

Sean L · 01-28-03, 10:22 AM

On Saturday I removed the EGR valve and confirmed that it's not frozen....I cleaned it and reinstalled. I connected one of the intake vacuum lines directly to the egr and the valve fulled opened immediately, so I don't think it's frozen.

I'll pursue additional cleaning of the egr ports.

I called Niello Acura this morning and talked to Larry as well as his shop foreman Jarrod and he tells me it's still probably clogged, I may need to remove the intake manifold, looking at 7 hours @ $90/hr. So needless to say I'll be doing this myself.

I'll probably try cleaning it one or two more times with a strong solvent...thanks for the recomendation. I'm not giving up yet

Regards,

ghostKtulu · 01-28-03, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sean L
On Saturday I removed the EGR valve and confirmed that it's not frozen....I cleaned it and reinstalled. I connected one of the intake vacuum lines directly to the egr and the valve fulled opened immediately, so I don't think it's frozen.

I'll pursue additional cleaning of the egr ports.

I called Niello Acura this morning and talked to Larry as well as his shop foreman Jarrod and he tells me it's still probably clogged, I may need to remove the intake manifold, looking at 7 hours @ $90/hr. So needless to say I'll be doing this myself.

I'll probably try cleaning it one or two more times with a strong solvent...thanks for the recomendation. I'm not giving up yet

Regards,

wow...good luck...thats what I call perserverance...

01-23-03, 01:54 PM	#1 (permalink)
Sean L Sr. Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 314 Car 1: '94 Cashmere LS Sedan iTrader: (0)	Failed 'functional' Ca. emission test (EGR) ??? I decided to get my Legend registered in California finally--I'm from Florida--(mistake #1), so I went to the local Smog Monkeys (mistake #2), had them do the smog test. Keep in mind that my '94 LS Sedan is bone stock and runs like a Swiss friggin watch. It passed every test including visual and emissions, but failed the EGR functional test. Apparently the RPM is supposed to drop causing the engine to stall during the EGR function test and my car didn't stall. So they failed me. FWIW, there is no CHECK ENGINE light on or any driveability problem and the EGR valve 'seems' to be functioning. The idiot who did the test told me that my EGR ports are clogged. Anyone know if a) this is common/probable and b) what's the easiest fix. Thanks guys. __________________ Sean in Norcal '05 Infiniti G35 Coupe '94 Mustang Cobra '94 Legend LS Sedan (SOLD) '97 Lex LS400 Coach Edition http://www.mustangmods.com/data/4358/legendsig2.jpg Last edited by Sean L : 01-23-03 at 02:29 PM.

01-23-03, 02:31 PM	#2 (permalink)
wallstrum Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 677 Car 1: '94 Black/Black GS 6-Speed (sold) iTrader: (0)	sean - i think you'll remember me... i live up in santa rosa. i haven't heard from you in quite a while : ) anyway, i have had a bit of experience in dealing with this exact issue. according to my mechainc, the egr system in all of the legends is an inherently poor design, and becomes clogged easily. check this forum thread from a while ago for what i had to say on the topic - i think you'll find most of your answers there: <where is the egr sensor located?> if you have any other questions, just ask. wally __________________ 2nd Generation FAQ...Click here

01-23-03, 02:40 PM	#3 (permalink)
Sean L Sr. Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 314 Car 1: '94 Cashmere LS Sedan iTrader: (0)	Hi Wally. Sure I remember you, you had that radio I was interested in.... I've been super busy with work, travel, etc. I finally bought a house in San Ramon (ouch, kinda pricey out here!). Things are good. My Legend is good, I bought a set of 16" TL wheels that I'm planning on installing soon. Or at least I thought my Legend was good until it failed the smog test this morning. I just talked to a car buddy of mine (we built our supercharged Mustangs together) and he said basically what your post states, remove the EGR valve and clean the system. I also just noticed that the Legend Maintenance schedule has 'Check EGR System' every 30K miles. That seemed a bit frequently until you just enlightened me. I'm not the kind of guy to pay someone 3-4 hours labor for something like this, so I will pick up a new EGR valve gasket in the next day or so and take the valve off the manifold Sat. morning and begin the cleaning process. I will also buy a hand operated vacuum pump and try to simulate the test before re-smogging. I'll post results after I'm done. I was hoping to have the car smogged today and registered tomorrow so I could get the Florida license plate off the car in case the Raiders lose the Superbowl.... (Go Bucs!) Thanks, __________________ Sean in Norcal '05 Infiniti G35 Coupe '94 Mustang Cobra '94 Legend LS Sedan (SOLD) '97 Lex LS400 Coach Edition http://www.mustangmods.com/data/4358/legendsig2.jpg Last edited by Sean L : 01-23-03 at 02:51 PM.

01-23-03, 11:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
Merlin the Wrench Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: sacramento Posts: 854 Car 1: 1995 L sedan; past 1992 L sedan iTrader: (0)	I use Earth Station in Citrus Heights for smog, have had two legends done there over 10 years running and no such problem on either. Niello Acura in Sacramento, service manager is Larry Reuters. (916) 334-6300. Call him and ask him what you are looking at. San Ramon to Sacramento is about 1 hour and worth the trip. Niello is the most reliable Acura Service facility in this area. I wouldn't trust many of the others. __________________ Best Wishes Steve

01-24-03, 12:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
wallstrum Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 677 Car 1: '94 Black/Black GS 6-Speed (sold) iTrader: (0)	a non-functioning egr system won't hurt the car/engine at all... it is just an emissions thing (egr = exhaust gas recirculation - the system takes some of the exhaust gasses and recycles them through the intake so some of the unburned contaminants get burned up the second time through, making the exhaust cleaner from an environmental standpoint). the egr system is required to be functioning properly and not clogged in california - your car has to pass a smog test every year in order for you to renew your registration in california...that is why it is a big deal over here. if yours isn't working and you don't need to pass some sort of emissions test in your state, then i definitely wouldn't worry about fixing it. when i had bot of my legends tested with the blocked egr system, the exhaust itself couldn't have been cleaner - it was like 0% carbon monoxide. they were both failed by the mechanic because when he physically tested the egr system to make sure it was working, it was not (basically, using a vacuum pressure reader, they apply a vacuum force to an inlet in the engine bay. if the engine dies, then the egr system is functioning. if nothing happens, then the system is clogged.). let me know if you have any more questions... wally __________________ 2nd Generation FAQ...Click here

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01-24-03, 09:15 AM	#5 (permalink)
95gs Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: MD Posts: 821 Car 1: 4 wheels, 1 engine, 4 doors and too many to list iTrader: (0)	Wallstrum - do you know what was use to clean the EGR sysytem out??? what would happen if you keep driving w/o cleaning it? mine would flash engine code 12 only on long distance driving (50 miles plus)

01-24-03, 01:16 PM	#7 (permalink)
Sean L Sr. Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 314 Car 1: '94 Cashmere LS Sedan iTrader: (0)	Wally, I agree with everything you said. Tomorrow morning I will be removing my EGR valve and spending a few hours cleaning the EGR system. My car actually passed the 'tailpipe' emissions test, it's a clean running car, HC @ idle was 41ppm, @ 2500rpm it was 7ppm. All other readings were nominal. So while my car isn't a gross polluter, it failed the smog test. I wasn't real happy yesterday, but after doing some research and talking to my local Acura specialist (common problem, 4 hours @ $75/per to fix) I am confident that I can fix it tomorrow. Thanks everyone for your help. __________________ Sean in Norcal '05 Infiniti G35 Coupe '94 Mustang Cobra '94 Legend LS Sedan (SOLD) '97 Lex LS400 Coach Edition http://www.mustangmods.com/data/4358/legendsig2.jpg

01-25-03, 02:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
Sean L Sr. Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 314 Car 1: '94 Cashmere LS Sedan iTrader: (0)	I followed some directions provided to me by Nick B, a fellow Message Board Member. everything went well, I removed the EGR valve, inspected it, and cleaned it. Same for the EGR tube (it was gunked up but not totally clogged). Everything appears fairly very clean now. I even ran some thick 10 or 12 gauge wire deep into the port in the back of the intake manifold to try and clean out some gunk. Worked good, lots of crap came out on the wire, even after several times. I put everything back together very carefully, took about 2 hours start to finish. The car fired right up and runs fine, however, I still don't think it's right. There doesn't appear to be vacuum present in the line attached to the egr valve??? Could this be a bad solenoid in the egr vacuum hose system? In order to confirm proper egr valve operation, I even connected a vac line from the intake directly to the egr valve and it opened fully immediately. Ok, the valve seems to be working (mechanically), but I without the Helms manual or a troubleshooting guide I am at a standstill here. Againn, for some reason, there doesn't seem to be any vacuum hitting the egr in the stock configuration the way it's supposed to.... Any ideas on this? Thanks again for all your help! __________________ Sean in Norcal '05 Infiniti G35 Coupe '94 Mustang Cobra '94 Legend LS Sedan (SOLD) '97 Lex LS400 Coach Edition http://www.mustangmods.com/data/4358/legendsig2.jpg

01-25-03, 02:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
Merlin the Wrench Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: sacramento Posts: 854 Car 1: 1995 L sedan; past 1992 L sedan iTrader: (0)	egr valves open under a specific load. Many cars have a design that allows a certain amount of vaccum to bleed off so they close at lower RPM. To test them normally requires running the engine until operating temp and at rpm and being able to physically see if they gently open when the car is held at say 2000 rpm for 20 to 30 seconds. Most shops test them by applying solid vaccum pressure or by hand with gloves on and seeing if the engine RPM's slow. If so then the valve itself is Ok. A small vaccuum pump may not supply enough vaccum if the egr has a moderate bleed port. The EGR valve introduces oxygenless exhaust gasses back into the intake mixture which drops the combusion temps and that drops NOX. Also, EGR is often connected to the engine computer and or temp sensors and will not kick in until the engine reaches full operating temperature. Page 6-16 and 6-17 of the Haynes manual deals with how to do the test on 92 - 95 Legends and also test the PCM to see if it is the culprit. __________________ Best Wishes Steve Last edited by Merlin the Wrench : 01-25-03 at 02:50 PM.

01-25-03, 04:11 PM	#10 (permalink)
Sean L Sr. Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 314 Car 1: '94 Cashmere LS Sedan iTrader: (0)	Thanks Steve. Regardless of what the problem is, I need to order a Helms manual ASAP. Regards, __________________ Sean in Norcal '05 Infiniti G35 Coupe '94 Mustang Cobra '94 Legend LS Sedan (SOLD) '97 Lex LS400 Coach Edition http://www.mustangmods.com/data/4358/legendsig2.jpg

01-25-03, 04:31 PM	#11 (permalink)
Merlin the Wrench Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: sacramento Posts: 854 Car 1: 1995 L sedan; past 1992 L sedan iTrader: (0)	the HAYNES manual is generally available at Pep Boys, Kragens etc. The HELMS manual is pretty pricey. I want one too but they are $$$ and it takes time to get one - plus it isn't one manual for all. You buy the 1993 or 94 and then the supplements for wiring and trans etc. The Chilton book is pretty good for legends because it has all the parts blow ups and torque settings etc. I found the EGR procedure in the HAYNES book and you can buy that locally for usually under $20. It covers 1990 - 1993 Integra and 1991 - 1995 Legend. __________________ Best Wishes Steve

01-27-03, 04:46 PM	#12 (permalink)
Sean L Sr. Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 314 Car 1: '94 Cashmere LS Sedan iTrader: (0)	Merlin- I went to Pep Boys today at lunch and bought the Haynes manual as well as a hand operated vacuum pump (w/ gauge). The egr valve testing procedure in the Haynes book is very straight forward. I tested the EGR valve after my 1/2 hour freeway ride home, so the car was fully warmed up. I pumped it up to 8" of vacuum, and the engine rpms didn't move, let alone try to stall :-( The egr valve seems to hold vacuum, so I don't know if it's bad or not??? I guess it's possible that I still have clogged egr ports...... meaning I'll have to dig even deeper and remove the housing in the back of the intake that the egr pipe attachs to. I thought I had cleaned everything out pretty good, but I really don't know how I'm going to clean the egr passages within the intake/heads. Thanks again for all your advice. __________________ Sean in Norcal '05 Infiniti G35 Coupe '94 Mustang Cobra '94 Legend LS Sedan (SOLD) '97 Lex LS400 Coach Edition http://www.mustangmods.com/data/4358/legendsig2.jpg Last edited by Sean L : 01-27-03 at 09:35 PM.

01-28-03, 02:40 AM	#13 (permalink)
Merlin the Wrench Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: sacramento Posts: 854 Car 1: 1995 L sedan; past 1992 L sedan iTrader: (0)	remember that there are two sides to the egr - the side that the burned gases come in from and the side they go to the intake manifold when the EGR oipens. Make sure the side to the exhaust is open too. You should be able to put a plastic piece of tubing up to the cold intake port side or exhaust side when the EGR is off and blow on it to see if it is open or not. Also, before removing it, with a small mirror, see if when you apply vaccum if the pintle moves. If it doesn't then the EGR vlve itself could be frozen. It will be hard to see if it moves but if you look closely you should be able to see it I think if it is like most EGR valves. You can also put gloves on and manually move the EGR I think gently from underneath with you fingers. The gloves are to keep from being burned. If it works when you move it by hand then the passages are open and the EGR is probably frozen I would think. The best carbon solvent is some stuff made by GM called top cyl cleaner. It is also available in a spray from GM, Jeep and Mercury outboards and can be used to free up things that are carbon bound. It is smelly and you don;t want to get any on the outside of the engine as it will even eat annodizing off - let alone paint etc. Acura used it on the 91-93 Legend to unstick stuck compressions rings. I would think a little sprayed or poured (like no more than a shot glass) in the Intake side of the EGR valve would soften any carbon in there if it sits 2 or 3 hours. As I mentioned earlier - you might want to check with Niello. __________________ Best Wishes Steve

01-28-03, 10:22 AM	#14 (permalink)
Sean L Sr. Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 314 Car 1: '94 Cashmere LS Sedan iTrader: (0)	On Saturday I removed the EGR valve and confirmed that it's not frozen....I cleaned it and reinstalled. I connected one of the intake vacuum lines directly to the egr and the valve fulled opened immediately, so I don't think it's frozen. I'll pursue additional cleaning of the egr ports. I called Niello Acura this morning and talked to Larry as well as his shop foreman Jarrod and he tells me it's still probably clogged, I may need to remove the intake manifold, looking at 7 hours @ $90/hr. So needless to say I'll be doing this myself. I'll probably try cleaning it one or two more times with a strong solvent...thanks for the recomendation. I'm not giving up yet Regards, __________________ Sean in Norcal '05 Infiniti G35 Coupe '94 Mustang Cobra '94 Legend LS Sedan (SOLD) '97 Lex LS400 Coach Edition http://www.mustangmods.com/data/4358/legendsig2.jpg Last edited by Sean L : 01-28-03 at 01:00 PM.

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