Honda/Acura OEM rims swap - Page 3

tofusensei · 06-08-07, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alperovich

i think so

but if IRC yes.

edit: actually, i think i'm wrong. sorry

haha yah i think ur wrong too judging by this...

Interests:
Girls, cars, international relations, + 200 km/h, current events

Alperovich · 06-08-07, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tofusensei

haha yah i think ur wrong too judging by this...

Interests:
Girls, cars, international relations, + 200 km/h, current events

yea, i thought yes b/c i recalled seeing the pic of NALM and he was there with his girl, and they had her listed under his user name, but now i looked back and it said she was his GF. LOL, like i said sorry.

haha either way. IMO if u put wider wheels on legends, it only makes sense to put it in the front, thats were u need it the most, not the in the back, its just useless there.

Volk Racing · 06-08-07, 01:37 AM

Could you just add some sway bars and shock tower bars to remedy the understeer while keeping all 4 rims/tires the same, and still come out with the same effect as the reverse stagger?

Black Type II · 06-08-07, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alperovich

yea, i thought yes b/c i recalled seeing the pic of NALM and he was there with his girl, and they had her listed under his user name, but now i looked back and it said she was his GF. LOL, like i said sorry.

haha either way. IMO if u put wider wheels on legends, it only makes sense to put it in the front, thats were u need it the most, not the in the back, its just useless there.

unless you want more understeer

FF Drifter · 06-08-07, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volk Racing

Could you just add some sway bars and shock tower bars to remedy the understeer while keeping all 4 rims/tires the same, and still come out with the same effect as the reverse stagger?

Those modifications will certainly help but also don't forget that most Legends don't have terribly bad understeer to begin with. My impression of FWD cars is that the vast majority can get away with same-size tires all around because the heavier front 'squishes' the front tires down for more contact patch anyways. I'm sure this helps quite a bit in most normal driving situations ~ the handling is only overwhelmed when the front tire grip is devoted more towards braking or accelerating (you can imagine why).

Keith is set up with most of the modifications you listed and he has described his Legend as wanting to oversteer so I imagine it doesn't take a radical wheel setup to get things going.

My setup is a pretty extreme case; I'll measure the contact patches (front and rear) tomorrow just to get a measure, but I estimate the front contact patches are nearly twice the size of the rears. I originally did NOT plan on such a huge stagger but since I managed to procure a full set of NSX wheels, I figured I'd give it a try.

I've driven around with it a bit and under normal driving conditions, it drives like any normal Legend minus the fact that rough roads are more punishing now (the wide wheels tend to pull left or right with cracks in the road) but this isn't the fault of the stagger ~ I think any wide wheels would tend to do this. However when the car is pushed (even moderately) it's completely different.

For starters (as I mentioned before) the car veers into oversteer pretty easily. It's not extreme sideways sliding or anything but there's a considerably different feel to the car, like the back is not following quite where the front wheels are. Accelerating brings it all back in line. Since this is all during daily driving so far, I can't tell how much an improvement it will be when I go to the mountains this weekend where I'll be accelerating/braking/turning up and downhill. The MAJOR improvement I've noticed is in braking although I can probably attribute this as much to the better tires as I can to the bigger wider wheels.

As far as looks go, absolutely no one has commented on the car yet except my girlfriend (yes the girl in the avatar

) and all she said is that my car looks smaller now

Maybe no one has said anything because there's nothing to notice or maybe everyone is horrified but is just keeping their mouth shut. I'll take pics with my camera phone tomorrow morning for a preview hahaha

Stu · 06-08-07, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FF Drifter

.... but there's a considerably different feel to the car, like the back is not following quite where the front wheels are.

You don't seem to be very concerned about this. To me this is an indication that something is not right. This set-up would not work for me, but bst of luck ... I will wait for the pictures.

Very unique, I must say, so you do get points for that.

Herb · 06-08-07, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FF Drifter

For starters (as I mentioned before) the car veers into oversteer pretty easily. It's not extreme sideways sliding or anything but there's a considerably different feel to the car, like the back is not following quite where the front wheels are. Accelerating brings it all back in line.

The goal should be to make the car feel neutral, not having a tendency towards understeer nor oversteer. How much experience do you have with a tail-happy car? Unless you've driven a air-cooled 911 for most of your life, it sounds like you are setting yourself up for an accident.

I always wanted to try the NSX wheels. Even did a photoshop back in the day:

Post pictures.

tw1st · 06-08-07, 12:23 PM

His handle IS FF Drifter...

Stu · 06-08-07, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kofi Annan

The goal should be to make the car feel neutral, not having a tendency towards understeer nor oversteer. How much experience do you have with a tail-happy car? Unless you've driven a air-cooled 911 for most of your life, it sounds like you are setting yourself up for an accident.

I always wanted to try the NSX wheels. Even did a photoshop back in the day:

Post pictures.

I didn't want to use the word "accident" but now that Kofi said it, you better be real careful cause you are doing something I believe will upset, not improve the cars handling. However I am not an automotive engineer or an expert on modification of suspensions like everyone else here so I may be wrong.
Good photoshop work. The wheels look better on the NSX. They make the Legend look like a Vigor.

FF Drifter · 06-10-07, 01:36 AM

More testing, plus some pics.

First, I measured the contact patches this morning. I sprayed some water all around the tires then rolled the car away and measured. The rears (same size tire/rim as the OEM wheels) measured roughly 5in x 7in ~ 35 square inches of contact patch. The fronts were a silly huge 8.5in x 10in ~ a full 85 square inches of contact patch. You can imagine how these shapes would vary under acceleration or braking ~ either way it is likely that the fronts always have more tire on the road than the rears do.

Second, some pics that I took just earlier at some warehouses nearby:

Here is the front view. The fronts do not stick out at all beyond the car's body; very flush. I was really happy about this, especially considering how wide the wheels are. The rears sit a little farther out from the car than the old Legend wheels did (very subtle, only a -10 offset difference).

Here is the killer tell-tale picture. I crouched down to get this picture at wheel-view and yes, it's quite obvious the fronts are larger than the rears. I'm under the distinct impression that the lighting in this picture makes the effect even worse, especially the way the picture is cropped ~ but here's the worst possible angle I can get to make the fronts look huge compared to the rears.

A final shot of the car at angle. So far most people I've showed my 'new' wheels to have not noticed that the wheels are different sizes. When I point it out though (ie, "Notice anything funny? No? Well, compare the fronts and rears...") then I get a lot of perplexed looks. Judge for yourselves.

I'm considering changing the middle of the rims back to the Legend ones since the Acura logo is bigger. Not sure if it'll fit though. So enough about the looks, let's talk about the handling =)

I took the car to the local twisties for some undulating fun. As I drive the car more, I feel that my initial impressions might have been overexaggerated (maybe tread squirm from new tires, maybe I'm just adjusting to them, I dunno). The car does in fact still have a tendency to oversteer but I can feel it building up. This is NOT an omfg the tail is coming all the way around, I'm drifmatic! sort of oversteer. Rather, the car's rear gradually strays from the path that the fronts have drawn ~ an effect that is immediately noticeable considering how far apart the fronts and rears are ~ and any acceleration (even a slight jab at the gas) will bring it back in line. It's actually a lot of fun.

Something I also noticed is that I hardly need to turn the wheel as far as I did before when going around the bends. Only the tightest turns (or stupidest entry speeds) have me turning beyond the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions, and even then the rear will still come along predictably.

There IS a danger though; the car feels like it can be easily upset mid-turn if I'm at the limit. Jags in the road or misplaced mid-turn shifts will be severely punished in this car. However if I do all my braking before the curves, click the right gears, and brake carefully the car is incredibly rewarding to drive and it's a thrill to play with the newfound grip up front.

One last thing I've noticed ~ I feel that only with these new wheels is my suspension 'coming around.' The suspension was clearly designed for a car with non-factory rims (I imagine the car it came off of had Mugen wheels too) and the differences between the suspension settings are MUCH bigger with the new wheels. Soft feels floatier, hard is uncomfortably stiff, etc.

I've decided that if I get a chance to purchase another set of NA1 rear wheels, I'll probably pick them up and use those as my rears (maybe with weaker rubber so I'll still get some of the big-front-grip effect). But as it sits now, I'm loving this setup and look forward to exploring what my Legend can do with it as I learn more.

Alperovich · 06-10-07, 02:32 PM

good review! imo i think you should get wider tires in the back, increase the contact patch. should be better

BenL · 06-11-07, 01:54 PM

So, there are no problems with rubbing or anything?

I wonder how it would handle with 4 NSX rears, and the OEM NSX super-sticky Yokohama A022H tires.

FF Drifter · 06-11-07, 05:38 PM

No problems rubbing (in the front anyways). If I have time I'll try the big wheels on the rear.

The tires I'm using by the way are:
Front ~ Kumho Ecsta SPT 225/50V-16R
Rear ~ Kumho Ecsta ASX 205/60V-15R

The only other tire setup that could match speed ratings F/R with my desired sizes were Falken Ziex-512 (H-rated) which I've had bad experiences with. If I get another set of NSX rears, I'll consider the Yokohamas

Edify · 05-20-08, 05:44 PM

First off, I'd like to thank FF drifter for putting the work into testing NSX rims on our cars. Additionally, I figured since there is such a wealth of information in this thread that I would just add onto it.

I recently picked up 2 sets of NSX rims/tires(with the 2nd set arriving Thursday). I've always liked the 7 spoke tires which is why I have stuck with them for so long(since 1999). But I really like how the 5 spoke NSX rims look stock looking and yet really sporty. I've never liked the multi spoke rims that are coming out now-a-days.

Currently, I'm running the slightly different setup than FF drifter with the 225/50/16's in the front and the 205/50/15s in the back. I'm thinking I'll eventually change the rears to 205/60 when they run out of rubber - so as to offset the overall diameter size difference - although noone as of yet has noticed - other than the width of the fronts. The Cooper Zeon 2xs tires(280 treadwear) are wonderful tires. I think they are the sportiest tires I've ever had on my car. The fronts went from 6.5" wide to 8.5" wide. Cost $32/rim for the boring of the fronts.

MY GOSH does this car now handle beautifully. Before when heading into a corner and giving it some spirited throttle I would understeer out of the corner, while now it just pulls harder into the corner. I have yet to drive on a wet road, but I would say the car has zero understeer and if anything a little oversteer which I have not reached yet.

I know some have commented that they think having this setup would mess up the handling but I have to say on this heavy FWD car it takes away one of my greatest critiques about it....the Understeer....its GONE.

I had a friend in the car while going around a 90' bend in 1st gear, floored it halfway through the turn and it just grips and goes. Before I can assure you I would have run off the road or dang near close to it. The car never chirps the tires anymore. Before at the track I would have to modulate my throttle slightly in first gear to have any traction - although this could partly be explained by 400 treadwear tires, I know the extra 2" in width are allowing for a lot more grip. It's actually a lot of fun to corner.

Coming from someone who has AutoX Turbo/coilovered miatas, I never thought the legend would be fun in a corner - but I'm actually thinking of picking up some coilovers now.

Later this year I plan on taking it to the track again and seeing if I can see any difference between running the car as is right now, and then again with NSX 15s all around. When I weighed the tires at UPS the 15s were 36lbs with rubber and the 16s were 46lbs on the heavy ass Cooper Tires. I'm thinking with the Michilin Pilot XGT z4 tires they will be about 35lbs/44lbs respectively. Testing to see whether the extra grip off the line will offset the extra ~20lbs of rotating mass. I need to weigh my 7 spoke rims&tires but I'm thinking they are around 40lbs - so the extra grip has not added any real weight.

I'm going to update soon with some better quality photos and a listing of all the weights I have recorded - hopefully with an accurate scale. For now here's a teaser photo and I'm planning on going back to the NSX center caps: Yeah I KNOW it's really bad...blech.

An idea of the size difference:

-Ed

Edify · 05-20-08, 05:57 PM

So does that make 3 people with these rims: FF drifter, myself, and Blackend(confirmed yet?)?

-Ed

06-08-07, 01:37 AM	#33 (permalink)
Volk Racing Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: here Posts: 2,855 Car 1: Legend GS Car 2: Yamaha YZF iTrader: (2)	Could you just add some sway bars and shock tower bars to remedy the understeer while keeping all 4 rims/tires the same, and still come out with the same effect as the reverse stagger? __________________ 1994 GS (18 X 8.0, 18 X 9.0) B===D~(\|)

06-08-07, 12:23 PM	#38 (permalink)
tw1st The Great White North Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 839 Car 1: 95 Black on Black LS 6-speed iTrader: (1)	His handle IS FF Drifter... __________________ Installed: JDM Headlights with HID Retrofit, Weapon-R Secret Weapon, Remus Exhaust, Metal Substrate High Flow Cat, MLS Copy Bar, Addco Rear Sway Bar, Eibach Springs on Koni Reds, Blackend Engine Damper, 17" RSX A-spec Rims

06-10-07, 01:36 AM	#40 (permalink)
FF Drifter It's stock, really. Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 3,070 Car 1: KA7 Legend sedan, 5 speed manual iTrader: (1)	More testing, plus some pics. First, I measured the contact patches this morning. I sprayed some water all around the tires then rolled the car away and measured. The rears (same size tire/rim as the OEM wheels) measured roughly 5in x 7in ~ 35 square inches of contact patch. The fronts were a silly huge 8.5in x 10in ~ a full 85 square inches of contact patch. You can imagine how these shapes would vary under acceleration or braking ~ either way it is likely that the fronts always have more tire on the road than the rears do. Second, some pics that I took just earlier at some warehouses nearby: Here is the front view. The fronts do not stick out at all beyond the car's body; very flush. I was really happy about this, especially considering how wide the wheels are. The rears sit a little farther out from the car than the old Legend wheels did (very subtle, only a -10 offset difference). Here is the killer tell-tale picture. I crouched down to get this picture at wheel-view and yes, it's quite obvious the fronts are larger than the rears. I'm under the distinct impression that the lighting in this picture makes the effect even worse, especially the way the picture is cropped ~ but here's the worst possible angle I can get to make the fronts look huge compared to the rears. A final shot of the car at angle. So far most people I've showed my 'new' wheels to have not noticed that the wheels are different sizes. When I point it out though (ie, "Notice anything funny? No? Well, compare the fronts and rears...") then I get a lot of perplexed looks. Judge for yourselves. I'm considering changing the middle of the rims back to the Legend ones since the Acura logo is bigger. Not sure if it'll fit though. So enough about the looks, let's talk about the handling =) I took the car to the local twisties for some undulating fun. As I drive the car more, I feel that my initial impressions might have been overexaggerated (maybe tread squirm from new tires, maybe I'm just adjusting to them, I dunno). The car does in fact still have a tendency to oversteer but I can feel it building up. This is NOT an omfg the tail is coming all the way around, I'm drifmatic! sort of oversteer. Rather, the car's rear gradually strays from the path that the fronts have drawn ~ an effect that is immediately noticeable considering how far apart the fronts and rears are ~ and any acceleration (even a slight jab at the gas) will bring it back in line. It's actually a lot of fun. Something I also noticed is that I hardly need to turn the wheel as far as I did before when going around the bends. Only the tightest turns (or stupidest entry speeds) have me turning beyond the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions, and even then the rear will still come along predictably. There IS a danger though; the car feels like it can be easily upset mid-turn if I'm at the limit. Jags in the road or misplaced mid-turn shifts will be severely punished in this car. However if I do all my braking before the curves, click the right gears, and brake carefully the car is incredibly rewarding to drive and it's a thrill to play with the newfound grip up front. One last thing I've noticed ~ I feel that only with these new wheels is my suspension 'coming around.' The suspension was clearly designed for a car with non-factory rims (I imagine the car it came off of had Mugen wheels too) and the differences between the suspension settings are MUCH bigger with the new wheels. Soft feels floatier, hard is uncomfortably stiff, etc. I've decided that if I get a chance to purchase another set of NA1 rear wheels, I'll probably pick them up and use those as my rears (maybe with weaker rubber so I'll still get some of the big-front-grip effect). But as it sits now, I'm loving this setup and look forward to exploring what my Legend can do with it as I learn more. __________________ -8000K HID low-beams/PIAA Spark 8000 high-beams/PIAA Plasma GT-X corners -Type II brakes/some weight reduction/new tires every 4-6 months -NA1 NSX wheels: Kumho Ecsta SPT 225/50V-16R in front, Kumho Ecsta ASX 205/60V-15R in rear -Custom built six-puck kevlar clutch/Lightened (aluminum) pulleys -[Mugen/Showa] suspension with remote-adjustable dampers -C35A1/C32A1 hybrid swap; smog legal (by GreenLight Auto)

06-11-07, 05:38 PM	#43 (permalink)
FF Drifter It's stock, really. Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 3,070 Car 1: KA7 Legend sedan, 5 speed manual iTrader: (1)	No problems rubbing (in the front anyways). If I have time I'll try the big wheels on the rear. The tires I'm using by the way are: Front ~ Kumho Ecsta SPT 225/50V-16R Rear ~ Kumho Ecsta ASX 205/60V-15R The only other tire setup that could match speed ratings F/R with my desired sizes were Falken Ziex-512 (H-rated) which I've had bad experiences with. If I get another set of NSX rears, I'll consider the Yokohamas __________________ -8000K HID low-beams/PIAA Spark 8000 high-beams/PIAA Plasma GT-X corners -Type II brakes/some weight reduction/new tires every 4-6 months -NA1 NSX wheels: Kumho Ecsta SPT 225/50V-16R in front, Kumho Ecsta ASX 205/60V-15R in rear -Custom built six-puck kevlar clutch/Lightened (aluminum) pulleys -[Mugen/Showa] suspension with remote-adjustable dampers -C35A1/C32A1 hybrid swap; smog legal (by GreenLight Auto)

05-20-08, 05:44 PM	#44 (permalink)
Edify Just Another Guy Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Sarasota, FL Posts: 539 Car 1: '05 C6 Z51 Car 2: '91 Legend Coupe L Car 3: 96 Tahoe/2005 Civic iTrader: (2)	First off, I'd like to thank FF drifter for putting the work into testing NSX rims on our cars. Additionally, I figured since there is such a wealth of information in this thread that I would just add onto it. I recently picked up 2 sets of NSX rims/tires(with the 2nd set arriving Thursday). I've always liked the 7 spoke tires which is why I have stuck with them for so long(since 1999). But I really like how the 5 spoke NSX rims look stock looking and yet really sporty. I've never liked the multi spoke rims that are coming out now-a-days. Currently, I'm running the slightly different setup than FF drifter with the 225/50/16's in the front and the 205/50/15s in the back. I'm thinking I'll eventually change the rears to 205/60 when they run out of rubber - so as to offset the overall diameter size difference - although noone as of yet has noticed - other than the width of the fronts. The Cooper Zeon 2xs tires(280 treadwear) are wonderful tires. I think they are the sportiest tires I've ever had on my car. The fronts went from 6.5" wide to 8.5" wide. Cost $32/rim for the boring of the fronts. MY GOSH does this car now handle beautifully. Before when heading into a corner and giving it some spirited throttle I would understeer out of the corner, while now it just pulls harder into the corner. I have yet to drive on a wet road, but I would say the car has zero understeer and if anything a little oversteer which I have not reached yet. I know some have commented that they think having this setup would mess up the handling but I have to say on this heavy FWD car it takes away one of my greatest critiques about it....the Understeer....its GONE. I had a friend in the car while going around a 90' bend in 1st gear, floored it halfway through the turn and it just grips and goes. Before I can assure you I would have run off the road or dang near close to it. The car never chirps the tires anymore. Before at the track I would have to modulate my throttle slightly in first gear to have any traction - although this could partly be explained by 400 treadwear tires, I know the extra 2" in width are allowing for a lot more grip. It's actually a lot of fun to corner. Coming from someone who has AutoX Turbo/coilovered miatas, I never thought the legend would be fun in a corner - but I'm actually thinking of picking up some coilovers now. Later this year I plan on taking it to the track again and seeing if I can see any difference between running the car as is right now, and then again with NSX 15s all around. When I weighed the tires at UPS the 15s were 36lbs with rubber and the 16s were 46lbs on the heavy ass Cooper Tires. I'm thinking with the Michilin Pilot XGT z4 tires they will be about 35lbs/44lbs respectively. Testing to see whether the extra grip off the line will offset the extra ~20lbs of rotating mass. I need to weigh my 7 spoke rims&tires but I'm thinking they are around 40lbs - so the extra grip has not added any real weight. I'm going to update soon with some better quality photos and a listing of all the weights I have recorded - hopefully with an accurate scale. For now here's a teaser photo and I'm planning on going back to the NSX center caps: Yeah I KNOW it's really bad...blech. An idea of the size difference: -Ed __________________ Custom CAI - sr5guy stage II chip - EGR Block - TB Bypass - Blackend's Damper - Custom 2" Y Pipe - Magnaflow Cat - 2.5" B Pipe - Type II IM - Labrat Crank Pulley - NA1 NSX Rims - ME 6000k HID. 14.99 @ 94.12 before manifold, pulley, & rims. Though I've fallen to the Dark Side! 391whp/384wtq. Last edited by Edify : 05-22-08 at 07:30 PM.

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06-11-07, 01:54 PM	#42 (permalink)
BenL Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 206 iTrader: (3)	So, there are no problems with rubbing or anything? I wonder how it would handle with 4 NSX rears, and the OEM NSX super-sticky Yokohama A022H tires.

05-20-08, 05:57 PM	#45 (permalink)
Edify Just Another Guy Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Sarasota, FL Posts: 539 Car 1: '05 C6 Z51 Car 2: '91 Legend Coupe L Car 3: 96 Tahoe/2005 Civic iTrader: (2)	So does that make 3 people with these rims: FF drifter, myself, and Blackend(confirmed yet?)? -Ed __________________ Custom CAI - sr5guy stage II chip - EGR Block - TB Bypass - Blackend's Damper - Custom 2" Y Pipe - Magnaflow Cat - 2.5" B Pipe - Type II IM - Labrat Crank Pulley - NA1 NSX Rims - ME 6000k HID. 14.99 @ 94.12 before manifold, pulley, & rims. Though I've fallen to the Dark Side! 391whp/384wtq.