volshan

I bought my first Legend (White '93 Sedan, 190k miles) in January '03 and fell in love with it. In June '03 I had the 'Flashing D4, VSS' problem with it, and that's what brought me to the boards here, and I've been lurking and learning ever since.

Now I find myself with a starting problem that I've seen no mention of here, and am hoping someone may have heard of something like this and be able to point me in the right direction.

The History:

Summer '03 the VSS problem as mentioned above. I'll bet y'all already knew that PS fluid was sweet, but doesn't taste very good despite the sweetness, but I learned that doing the VSS!
This past summer I had what I now know to be the 'Main Relay' problem with starting - randomly wouldn't start when hot. It only happened a couple of times and I never troubleshot it or solved it. The car currently has the slow window problem and the window master 'On/Off switch problems, which I've just learned here how to fix. Both came up in the last 6 weeks or so, and work has just kept me from getting to them. I've replaced one driver's window regulator, and have disconnectd the window connections behind the driver's door panel to keep me from using the windows till I get it fixed. They've been disconnected for the last 3 weeks or so.

Last Friday I took the children to school in the morning and parked the car afterward. I didn't rain and wasn't particularly hot that day. Friday evening about 7pm I tried to start it and that leads us to:

The Symptoms:

The battery seemed to be almost dead, so thought one of the children had left a reading light on (they've done that before). I put the car on a tricke charger till Saturday.

Saturday, with the charger attached, I put the key in. Accessory position normal, but in the On position the 'Main Relay' (PGM-FI) was chattering (seems to be flicking on and off) at about 6-8 times per second. When I turn the key to 'Start' the chattering turns into a 'buzz' at 100+ cycles per second. The 'Check Engine' Light flashes with the chattering and buzzing.


I do a little bit of research on the boards here, and I discover the 'Main Relay' problem and fix, so I pulled the relay, re-soldered it, bench tested it as good (per the instructions found on this site as well as in my Haynes manual, which coincide with the ones here) and put the relay back in the car. No change.

There's still a battery drain with the key off and out, and I've done most of my troubleshooting with the charger attached.

Stepping on the brake while the chattering is going on will stop the chattering, as will shifting to any position but P or N (it's an automatic). But releasing the brake in P our N will have the chattering start again. All voltages coming out of the main relay are as I'd expect them to be, in all testing configurations (Key on or Starting), eixcept they're all obviously raising and dropping in keeping with the chattering.

There are two connectors for the main relay, and unplugging either one will stop the chattering (as I'd expect) but of course the car won't start (as I'd also expect) I disconnect pin 7, which goes to the fuel pump and with key 'On' the chattering is half speed from what it is with pin 7 connected, and (iirc) much faster in 'Start' but not as fast in either case as it is with pin 7 conected.

Checking for voltage at the ignition switch shows, again, just what I'd expect: hot at 'hot', hot at Acc with Key in acc position, hot, but flickering at On with key in On position, and hot and flickering at Start with key in start.

Best Guesses:

Bad Fuel pump, dragging down the voltage. (But disconnecting Pin 7, while causing a change in the situation, didn't stop the chattering.)
Bad Ignition switch. (But seems to me to test correctly, in place at least)
Bad ECU. (But stepping on the brake changes something, and the ECU is the only connection from the brake switch to the starting system I can find, so I thinking (hoping and praying) that the ECU is good.)
Possibly Bad Security System.
(I can't say what kind of security the car has - it's not aftermarket, but has the security light by the drivers door lock, and sets off the horn if you open the door without using the key.)

I have several possible culprits, but good arguements for and against each one, and as you can see, I've reached a point that any further R&R options all involved Dealer- or Junkyard- only parts that can't be returned, and I would rather only buy the right one.

I'm planning to go out and disconnect the electrical power to the fuel pump and see what changes to the situation, if any, that leads to, but thought I'd post here and see if anyone has any experience with a problem like this or an idea of what to test from here to narrow the problem down.

I'll also post a resolution when I find one to let everyone know, but if you've got any ideas for me, I'd be very grateful.

For the moment color me

thanks!

Volsh

 

volshan

Well - I promised to post the answer when I found it, and I didn't say 'but only if it doesn't make me look too stupid'....so here it is:

Battery.

Despite testing good with a MultiMeter and battery tester, the battery had a shorted cell (checked after R&R) which let it seem to me to be good, but caused the chattering relay.

Glad it was a cheap (and once found, easy) fix, anyway. And on the bright side, it forced me to make time to fix the windows, and should have taken care of the starting problem from last summer.

Volsh

Daddymac117

oh...um...glad we could help...

__________________

RAP

The chatter you heard was the starter solenoid. When you have a defective battery " bad cell " there is insufficient voltage going to the starter even though there may be a 12.50 volts indicated with a voltmeter test. You need a battery load meter to test the battery accurately.

Your problem was compounded by you posting too much, and you scared the non-knowing off. I did not read your post until now and it took a couple of readings to break it down and since you fixed your problem the point is moot. For the future, if you are interested, the Helms service manual
is your source of accurate knowledge. It's difficult to trouble shoot the Acura without it.

RAP

__________________
Acurite

Dre Linn

I was thinking battery for the clicking sound and bad sensor for the blinking D4. kinda wordy for such a simple fix.

__________________
1Dre Linn's Ramblings Parapaligic Walking
2Dre Linn Rambling. Who's First

Da Champ!!

Mr. 55:961

Coupes need to