Supercharging a 97 rl (legnd here in oz) - Page 3

aww-shiet · 01-19-08, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B+O

if that's the case a Grand National is utter retardation...

I haven't heard bull like that in a while. Sorry bro, but research is your best friend...

A turbo is best suited to automatics because you can spool it up on the line. Have you ever launched a turbo car before? Hell i have an Automatic Turbocharged car

what kinda stuff are you on?

Automatics with traction control?! Tell that to the Lexus IS300 5spd. I'm almost positive the M3 manual has Traction control too, it's a manual transmission car....hell the Legend had TCS as a manual transmission

what kinda stuff are you on about???

The fastest Turbocharged Drag Racers are Automatics...i just don't get your reasoning.

i was smoking shit, sorry

GrumpySteelMan · 03-21-08, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laylow

I 'm thinking about maybe using a procharger...Which is basically a compressor from a turbo with a pulley on it to drive the turbine fan......The great thing about it is that it requires no oil or coolant lines..It has it's own self contained oil to keep it lubricated and cool......after a specific period of time you just change it....There's a universal kit you can buy and they can build a procharger to whatever specs you need

zThe plumbing for that is a whole nother thing along with mounting would all be custom but that's the fun part

Mounting would probably be a PITA. I'd love to see this happen. Any help I can offer, don't hesitate. Eric.N.Simpson@gmail.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by B+O

beyond the point of beneficial retardation.

But he was speaking specifically of the Legend. That's been the biggest issue with Legends and RLs. Managing the ECU. Home Brew Hacks don't work too well since the car is full of redundancy systems that make up for a lot of the hacks people do. Problem is the engine is flooded with fuel and timing is pretty much all but cut off.

This is an interesting point. I know there is a ton of sophistication present, but there is always a way to beat the system. I have been a 4dr hot rod fanatic for a while, not excluding a nearly 400whp 2.3L Volvo (with nitrous). I also trust in getting to the source of the source of the source of the problem.

The advent of OBDII has made things tough for a lot of people. I will certainly continue researching, but I'm convinced that ECU sensed engine load especially can be managed with a little finesse. I'm not doing all that to my car, but I'll keep an eye out for threads that I can hopefully add some insight to. Ignition timing on the other hand can be hellacious to deal with because of the misfire routines in the ECU itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aww-shiet

ahh your wrong. a turbo will kill a auto tranny. why do you think most supercharged cars are auto except the cobalt. because autos have traction control, manuals dont. a turbo is good for a manual, because it takes time to spool up turbos so you dont have a jumpy car off the line. all gtp pontiacs are auto and supercharged and are really fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aww-shiet

i was smoking shit, sorry

He answered his own statement. Nice. Still I want to add that autos are excellent for turbocharging, excellent for nitrous, excellent for drag racing. People don't realize that while a stock clutch in their cavalier can't handle 30 extra ft lbs. of torque the same stock auto can probably handle 50-75, even in a pedestrian application like said cavalier (total BS numbers, but you get the picture). Torque converters reduce driveline shock, many transmission shops can convert your factory converter into a higher stall for just a couple hundred bucks. There will be some sacrifice in fuel economy, but this is the performance section.

The Crowing · 03-21-08, 09:33 PM

You need to chill.

**B+O** · 03-22-08, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpySteelMan

Mounting would probably be a PITA. I'd love to see this happen. Any help I can offer, don't hesitate. Eric.N.Simpson@gmail.com

This is an interesting point. I know there is a ton of sophistication present, but there is always a way to beat the system. I have been a 4dr hot rod fanatic for a while, not excluding a nearly 400whp 2.3L Volvo (with nitrous). I also trust in getting to the source of the source of the source of the problem.

The advent of OBDII has made things tough for a lot of people. I will certainly continue researching, but I'm convinced that ECU sensed engine load especially can be managed with a little finesse. I'm not doing all that to my car, but I'll keep an eye out for threads that I can hopefully add some insight to. Ignition timing on the other hand can be hellacious to deal with because of the misfire routines in the ECU itself.

SICK! How'd you get your B230 Tuned to 400hp?! I'm assuming you used the modern Red Block with the Piston squirters. You used Mega Squirt or something? Which turbo?

I've got a 93 944TIC i've been playing with. Barely touching 185whp, but the torque is ridiculous (something like 230lbs/ft) and she gets out of her own way right swiftly (i'm gearing up to install the SMT6).

3.5RL · 03-23-08, 10:14 PM

How about STS universial turbo for the RL? Does anybody knows it will be safe to put a turbo on a RL?

aww-shiet · 03-23-08, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.5RL

How about STS universial turbo for the RL? Does anybody knows it will be safe to put a turbo on a RL?

on a 1st gen its so crowded, this like barely any room. a rear end turbo setup is the best.

GrumpySteelMan · 03-24-08, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crowing

You need to chill.

Why is that buddy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by B+O

SICK! How'd you get your B230 Tuned to 400hp?! I'm assuming you used the modern Red Block with the Piston squirters. You used Mega Squirt or something? Which turbo?

I've got a 93 944TIC i've been playing with. Barely touching 185whp, but the torque is ridiculous (something like 230lbs/ft) and she gets out of her own way right swiftly (i'm gearing up to install the SMT6).

1995 944T here. Finally it was a T3/T04e 57-trim, stage 3 clipped turbine .48 a/r, nitrous, SMT6 made by perfect power, getting the ignition to work right was a bit tricky, had to run resistors and use the pull-up wire. The switchable maps and running nitrous with the aux injector driver map was choice. It was a drag with that turbo on the street, but it was just a toy, so it didn't matter.

The major barrier to power is the small 6cm turbine on the factory turbo. A close second is the small compressor.

If you want a cheap option you can find a 15G (TD04HL-15G-7) for about $250 used. You have to remove two studs from the turbine housing and drill the holes and it'll bolt to the factory manifold and downpipe if you use one from a 94-95 850T. Then you rotate the cold side and center section to match up all the factory connections (which all will fit if you have a mitsu TD04HL-13c-6cm, some of the 940s got the crappy little t25, so I can't speak for it). You have to make brackets to relocate the wastegate actuator...still for the money it is a real bang for the bucks mod.

The later model 850 turbos came with a much larger 2-3/4" turbine outlet. You have to build a downpipe to go with it, but it is much much better flowing. This is also true for the 18T/19Ts that came on the later R cars. They will all fit.

I used to modify the turbos for some of the guys over at turbobricks but after getting reverse scammed (Paypal blows) a couple times I quit doing it. If you decide to go that route I'd be glad to help you with the modification and the porting on the turbine inlet and wastegate flapper outlet (it really needs it).

Another big plus to using the 15g is that they have an adjustable arm on the wastegate actuator, so you can set your baseline boost at your pleasure.

If you want a really trick turbo setup (that won't require changing all the oil and coolant lines) you can find an old TD05H-12B and toss the old 12B compressor wheel off and then you can put any of the famous 16G/18G/20G wheels on it with a little machine work to the compressor housing. Plus the turbine itself is larger (hence the TD05) so it will have better exhaust flow when compared to an unported TD04.

If you're not planning on doing nitrous or anything really crazy you should look into simply chipping the ecu and ignition computer in the car. Some of the guys are now running 3" MAF and ford CFI injectors on the stock ecu! If you decide to go that route I think I have a 3" MAF laying around that you can have if you pay shipping. If you go over to turbobricks.com and look up Sam Collier (Roadracer4life) or Mike "Priest" Brown (thepriestmike) and tell 'em I (Eric Simpson, Turbobrick940) sent you, they'll make sure to point you the right directions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3.5RL

How about STS universial turbo for the RL? Does anybody knows it will be safe to put a turbo on a RL?

The STS kit is an ok choice and you can safely turbocharge anything with enough work...BUT some of the experts on the Engine Management of the car can chime in. I doubt it would be easy to do it right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aww-shiet

on a 1st gen its so crowded, this like barely any room. a rear end turbo setup is the best.

No offense intended, but you're the guy who was previously offering baseless, incorrect advice in this very thread.

I say the rear end turbo is fine for large engines with lots of heat to waste but considering lag and component safety it would make sense to at least attempt a conventional turbo setup. There is no question you could put a rear mounted turbo on the car, but there is much much more to the equation than just component placement and plumbing.

The Crowing · 03-25-08, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpySteelMan

Why is that buddy?

Because yes, while you do know what you're talking about, and yes, you give lots of great, credible information, you're a little on the vicious side towards others here. Remember that this is a car enthustiast forum, not a mechanics forum. I.E. not everone may be as mechanically inclined as others. In a small community like this, it's always better to make friends than enemies. Just food for thought.

GrumpySteelMan · 03-25-08, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crowing

Remember that this is a car enthustiast forum, not a mechanics forum. I.E. not everone may be as mechanically inclined as others. In a small community like this, it's always better to make friends than enemies. Just food for thought.

Sure thing. Yet an enthusiast who posts in the performance section, aside from the guy asking the questions should know what they are talking about or keep quiet. The misinformation floating around the net ends up costing newbies money, their only mode of transportation, or worse. I'm doing somebody a service by cutting through the BS whether you like it or not.

If I make an enemy because somebody doesn't know what they're talking about, yet presenting their incorrect-to-baseless ideas as facts, so be it. I don't associate with people like that anyway, so it wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.

I would go so far as to say I'm better than most of the members here who go out of their way to call BS first and ask questions (or have to apologize) later. It doesn't matter if someone has or doesn't have, the information that gets exchanged matters. Maybe a year or three from now somebody does a search and finds a wealth of information that would have been otherwise squelched and censured because somebody with 6,000 posts decided to ignore the thread because it was 'BS.'

I'm only here to help, so why don't you make a friend instead of an enemy.

aww-shiet · 03-25-08, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrumpySteelMan

Why is that buddy?

1995 944T here. Finally it was a T3/T04e 57-trim, stage 3 clipped turbine .48 a/r, nitrous, SMT6 made by perfect power, getting the ignition to work right was a bit tricky, had to run resistors and use the pull-up wire. The switchable maps and running nitrous with the aux injector driver map was choice. It was a drag with that turbo on the street, but it was just a toy, so it didn't matter.

The major barrier to power is the small 6cm turbine on the factory turbo. A close second is the small compressor.

If you want a cheap option you can find a 15G (TD04HL-15G-7) for about $250 used. You have to remove two studs from the turbine housing and drill the holes and it'll bolt to the factory manifold and downpipe if you use one from a 94-95 850T. Then you rotate the cold side and center section to match up all the factory connections (which all will fit if you have a mitsu TD04HL-13c-6cm, some of the 940s got the crappy little t25, so I can't speak for it). You have to make brackets to relocate the wastegate actuator...still for the money it is a real bang for the bucks mod.

The later model 850 turbos came with a much larger 2-3/4" turbine outlet. You have to build a downpipe to go with it, but it is much much better flowing. This is also true for the 18T/19Ts that came on the later R cars. They will all fit.

I used to modify the turbos for some of the guys over at turbobricks but after getting reverse scammed (Paypal blows) a couple times I quit doing it. If you decide to go that route I'd be glad to help you with the modification and the porting on the turbine inlet and wastegate flapper outlet (it really needs it).

Another big plus to using the 15g is that they have an adjustable arm on the wastegate actuator, so you can set your baseline boost at your pleasure.

If you want a really trick turbo setup (that won't require changing all the oil and coolant lines) you can find an old TD05H-12B and toss the old 12B compressor wheel off and then you can put any of the famous 16G/18G/20G wheels on it with a little machine work to the compressor housing. Plus the turbine itself is larger (hence the TD05) so it will have better exhaust flow when compared to an unported TD04.

If you're not planning on doing nitrous or anything really crazy you should look into simply chipping the ecu and ignition computer in the car. Some of the guys are now running 3" MAF and ford CFI injectors on the stock ecu! If you decide to go that route I think I have a 3" MAF laying around that you can have if you pay shipping. If you go over to turbobricks.com and look up Sam Collier (Roadracer4life) or Mike "Priest" Brown (thepriestmike) and tell 'em I (Eric Simpson, Turbobrick940) sent you, they'll make sure to point you the right directions.

The STS kit is an ok choice and you can safely turbocharge anything with enough work...BUT some of the experts on the Engine Management of the car can chime in. I doubt it would be easy to do it right.

No offense intended, but you're the guy who was previously offering baseless, incorrect advice in this very thread.

I say the rear end turbo is fine for large engines with lots of heat to waste but considering lag and component safety it would make sense to at least attempt a conventional turbo setup. There is no question you could put a rear mounted turbo on the car, but there is much much more to the equation than just component placement and plumbing.

wow dude, i never said anything to you, now your saying like you know everything. at one point in my life, i learn everything. that point hasnt reached its time. so when i say what i THINK is best, then people correct me and we all move on. but your like one of the few that just go back and push people around because they said something stupid.

i know RLs man, owned one. so when i say the engine bay is too crowded and rear end turbos are better (because there is little room for a s/c) that means i know its not going to work.

a rear end turbo will be the best for a legend. using a bigger turbo, piping isnt a problem. theres no lag.

buddy im not flipping off at you, but i dont have time for research. other people do, i dont.

later.

**B+O** · 03-25-08, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aww-shiet

buddy im not flipping off at you, but i dont have time for research. other people do, i dont.

later.

That can cost people money right there. It's always good to know what you're doing/talking about before advising or cutting into your car.

There's been centrifugal superchargers installed in G2 engine bays, as well as a turbocharger installed close to the engine on an RL. It's not "impossible" per se. Just takes some grey matter and Green backs.

aww-shiet · 03-25-08, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B+O

That can cost people money right there. It's always good to know what you're doing/talking about before advising or cutting into your car.

There's been centrifugal superchargers installed in G2 engine bays, as well as a turbocharger installed close to the engine on an RL. It's not "impossible" per se. Just takes some grey matter and Green backs.

i know man. thats why i give advice on what i know. i just try to chip in into something harder so that i could learn from other guys.

GrumpySteelMan · 03-26-08, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aww-shiet

wow dude, i never said anything to you, now your saying like you know everything. at one point in my life, i learn everything. that point hasnt reached its time. so when i say what i THINK is best, then people correct me and we all move on. but your like one of the few that just go back and push people around because they said something stupid.

Seriously no offense was intended. You are saying it was your opinion, but let me put it back into perspective for you and hopefully put this issue to rest.

Quote:

ahh your wrong. a turbo will kill a auto tranny. why do you think most supercharged cars are auto except the cobalt. because autos have traction control, manuals dont. a turbo is good for a manual, because it takes time to spool up turbos so you dont have a jumpy car off the line. all gtp pontiacs are auto and supercharged and are really fast.

You presented all that as fact. Nowhere did you add that any of that was simply a thought that you had. Obviously my problem is that you said that I was wrong about turbocharging being excellent for automatics...but you had no legitimate reason to say such a thing. How is that even a little helpful to anyone? You were corrected, then we all moved on, and then you chimed back in after we've already moved past the fact that you didn't really know what you were talking about on this subject.

Quote:

i know RLs man, owned one. so when i say the engine bay is too crowded and rear end turbos are better (because there is little room for a s/c) that means i know its not going to work.

I'm not saying you don't know anything, but I am saying you shouldn't offer your opinions without making it obvious that they are just that. I've been all over my 2004 3.5RL today. I have decided it would be possible to route the plumbing so as to put the turbo itself where the airbox is. PERSONALLY I've done a similarly laid out single turbo install on a '95 Mustang 5.0 and it worked out just fine. Here is the kit itself. Of course it had to be modified to fit the different bodystyle, but it was pretty straightforward.

FOR THE RL (My answer to the rear-mounted turbo)

I would pull air from the fenderwell, compressed air outlet straight down through the sheetmetal to the intercooler, mounted behind the lower grille. I'd flip over the TCS throttle body if fitted and intake intercooled air from the driver's side. I would mount the external wastegate on the crossover pipe and dump towards the drivers side. Turbine inlet doglegged from factory manifolds forward, Turbine outlet 90 degrees out and down in front of accessories and back, maybe a little clearancing would be needed, but then route exhaust through the factory Y-pipe location back. No oil pump needed. No exposure of sensitive parts to the underside of the car and road hazards. Virtually zero chance of water entering the turbo inlet.

My suggestions aren't limited to "Do this it is the best/only way." Even if they were, there would be a solid reason for offering such a statement.

Quote:

a rear end turbo will be the best for a legend. using a bigger turbo, piping isnt a problem. theres no lag.

The rear end turbo is not BEST for anything, but I've said that is my opinion. Sadly, this is where I must tell you again that you are wrong. Using a bigger turbo means MORE lag, not less, let alone none at all. This is due to the increased rotational mass (inertia of a physically larger i.e. heavier turbine/compressor wheels), a larger turbine housing (higher peak flow but reduced boost response due to the larger cross sectional area), or a higher flowing/clipped turbine wheel (trading total flow for 'leverage' against turbine vanes). Compressor housings alone have little effect of spool time.

Quote:

buddy im not flipping off at you, but i dont hav

03-23-08, 10:14 PM	#35 (permalink)
3.5RL Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: somewhere Posts: 55 Car 1: 1996 RL iTrader: (0)	How about STS universial turbo for the RL? Does anybody knows it will be safe to put a turbo on a RL? __________________ Acura RL in the making...

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