Family (car) tree

aznman007 · 03-27-08, 02:58 PM

Car Company Family Tree

know your history folks!

*sam o nela* · 03-27-08, 03:07 PM

Nice!

EarlThePearl · 03-27-08, 03:10 PM

Very interesting. There is alot of information on that Website that i did not know about. The site is up to date also. I just read in the paper just this morning that TATA purchased Jaguar and LandRover from Ford for about 1.7Billion and Ford originally purchased each division for about 2.2 Billion seperately.

SuperLegend91 V2.0 · 03-27-08, 03:16 PM

nice!

So let me get this straight-nissan owns renault or renault owns nissan? It is kinda hard to tell

samblaze · 03-27-08, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperLegend91 V2.0

nice!

So let me get this straight-nissan owns renault or renault owns nissan? It is kinda hard to tell

Here's the very confusing part of M&A's in the corporate (especially automobile) industry:

Renault owns 44.4% of Nissan in stock. Nissan owns 15% of Renault in stock. In effect, this implies Renault has a 29.4% stake in Nissan. This is not a merger and the companies call it an 'alliance' (they're 8th largest now, had they fully merged they would have been 4th largest). Advantages to this ridiculously complex setup:

1. A profit/cost benefit increase in either company drives up the stock of both. As opposed to a merger where the stock benefit direction would primarily be subsidiary --> parent (ie parent stock goes up due to profit in subsidiary).
2. Renault avoids massive corporate taxes normally involved with M&A's in the EU.
3. Nissan avoids simply being 'taken over' by an European rival.
4. They still pay technology licensing fees to one another, essentially transferring money from the left hand to the right and back again, yet making it look like profitable business for every transaction in the books of both companies.
5. If either company tanks (as Nissan was in '99 before Ghozn) then the other minimizes their losses as the 'alliance' can be severed quite quickly, although Renault is at more risk.

Corporate ownership/stake/alliance relations are crazy, complex setups and intentionally so for tax, stock opting/share-holding and book-keeping reasons.

AustinForester · 03-27-08, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samblaze

Here's the very confusing part of M&A's in the corporate (especially automobile) industry:

Renault owns 44.4% of Nissan in stock. Nissan owns 15% of Renault in stock. In effect, this implies Renault has a 29.4% stake in Nissan. This is not a merger and the companies call it an 'alliance' (they're 8th largest now, had they fully merged they would have been 4th largest). Advantages to this ridiculously complex setup:

1. A profit/cost benefit increase in either company drives up the stock of both. As opposed to a merger where the stock benefit direction would primarily be subsidiary --> parent (ie parent stock goes up due to profit in subsidiary).
2. Renault avoids massive corporate taxes normally involved wit M&A's in the EU.
3. Nissan avoids simply being 'taken over' by an European rival.
4. They still pay technology licensing fees to one another, essentially transferring money from the left had to the right and back again, yet making it lok like profitable business for every transaction in the books of both companies.
5. If either company tanks (as Nissan was in '99 before Ghozn) then the other minimizes their losses as the 'alliance' can be severed quite quickly, although Renault is at more risk.

Corporate ownership/stake/alliance relations are crazy, complex setups and intentionally so for tax, stock opting/share-holding and book-keeping reasons.

when my head didnt explode from trying to figure it out when I clicked the link, you just made it explOded! thanks, now my cube is all sticky with brain matter

samblaze · 03-27-08, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinLegend

when my head didnt explode from trying to figure it out when I clicked the link, you just made it explOded! thanks, now my cube is all sticky with brain matter

SuperLegend91 V2.0 · 03-27-08, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samblaze

Here's the very confusing part of M&A's in the corporate (especially automobile) industry:

Renault owns 44.4% of Nissan in stock. Nissan owns 15% of Renault in stock. In effect, this implies Renault has a 29.4% stake in Nissan. This is not a merger and the companies call it an 'alliance' (they're 8th largest now, had they fully merged they would have been 4th largest). Advantages to this ridiculously complex setup:

1. A profit/cost benefit increase in either company drives up the stock of both. As opposed to a merger where the stock benefit direction would primarily be subsidiary --> parent (ie parent stock goes up due to profit in subsidiary).
2. Renault avoids massive corporate taxes normally involved wit M&A's in the EU.
3. Nissan avoids simply being 'taken over' by an European rival.
4. They still pay technology licensing fees to one another, essentially transferring money from the left had to the right and back again, yet making it lok like profitable business for every transaction in the books of both companies.
5. If either company tanks (as Nissan was in '99 before Ghozn) then the other minimizes their losses as the 'alliance' can be severed quite quickly, although Renault is at more risk.

Corporate ownership/stake/alliance relations are crazy, complex setups and intentionally so for tax, stock opting/share-holding and book-keeping reasons.

wow. It only took 2 semesters of accounting but i think i understand about 80% of what you just said

samblaze · 03-27-08, 05:34 PM

I invest and trade stocks in multiple markets so I had to learn me all this to make some $'s and not be dependent on a job accountable to my stupid bosses all my life. Not there yet, but getting closer!

Xcaliber003 · 03-27-08, 10:20 PM

^ Warning! I might have to start picking your brain. I'm looking to create assets in the stock market as well. Nothing big yet, just putting aside money here and there (5%) for investments.

GM owns some of Ferrari, WOW. So is a Vette a poor man's Ferrari?

BMW, and Honda are still independent, and mostly isolated.

samblaze · 03-27-08, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xcaliber003

^ Warning! I might have to start picking your brain.

I'm looking to create assets in the stock market as well. Nothing big yet, just putting aside money here and there (5%) for investments.

GM owns some of Ferrari, WOW.

BMW, and Honda are still independent, and somewhat isolated.

Sure thing man, always ready to help someone learn the markets and develp their wn investment style...especially a fellow forum member! GM 'owns' Ferrari in a very roundabout way too. They actually went around acquiring stakes in Ferrari vendors. This is because these vendors are a very niche market, making not commonly found products, and so there are only X number of companies capable of supplying Ferrari with OEM spec parts. So GM went around acquiring stock in those companies. In effect, GM doesn't really own Ferrari, but 5% of the cost of every Ferrari bought goes back to GM via the suppliers. GM also has a 20% stake in Fiat Auto (and Fiat Auto a 5.9% stake in GM, similar to Renault-Nissan). Fiat Auto in turn owns Fiat SPA and Fiat SPA owns Ferrari. GM's stake in Fiat Auto therefore translates into another 5% 'interest' (too low to be a 'stake') in Ferrari. Bottom line, ~10% of the profit of every Ferrari sold goes back to GM. And no there is no technology sharing between Vette's and Rari's.

I am proud the BMW and Honda remain independent (to an extent)! It's a good sign, because your product is strong enough to generate enough revenue on its own!

Xcaliber003 · 03-27-08, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samblaze

Sure thing man, always ready to help someone learn the markets and develp their wn investment style...especially a fellow forum member! GM 'owns' Ferrari in a very roundabout way too. They actually went around acquiring stakes in Ferrari vendors. This is because these vendors are a very niche market, making not commonly found products, and so there are only X number of companies capable of supplying Ferrari with OEM spec parts. So GM went around acquiring stock in those companies. In effect, GM doesn't really own Ferrari, but 5% of the cost of every Ferrari bought goes back to GM via the suppliers. GM also has a 20% stake in Fiat Auto (and Fiat Auto a 5.9% stake in GM, similar to Renault-Nissan). Fiat Auto in turn owns Fiat SPA and Fiat SPA owns Ferrari. GM's stake in Fiat Auto therefore translates into another 5% 'interest' (too low to be a 'stake') in Ferrari. Bottom line, ~10% of the profit of every Ferrari sold goes back to GM. And no there is no technology sharing between Vette's and Rari's.

Thanks man, I appreciate any knowledge I can get about the crazy complicated stock markets. I'll probably start a thread about stock advice in a couple of weeks, after the dust settles with this years tax return.

So if you buy a Malibu and an F430 do you get a discount?

Quote:

Originally Posted by samblaze

I am proud the BMW and Honda remain independent (to an extent)! It's a good sign, because your product is strong enough to generate enough revenue on its own!

hmm I never thought about it like that. Live and learn. I just thought it was good because they don't have to compromise about what kind of products they can make to meet the strict demands of any "partnerships".

samblaze · 03-28-08, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xcaliber003

So if you buy a Malibu and an F430 do you get a discount?

hmm I never thought about it like that. Live and learn. I just thought it was good because they don't have to compromise about what kind of products they can make to meet the strict demands of any "partnerships".

And I never thought about independent manufacturers like that ^^!! Good point.

03-27-08, 02:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
aznman007 Legend Whore Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Nashville, Tn Posts: 2,258 Car 1: 1990 Acura Legend L, and 1990 5-spd LS Sedan iTrader: (0)	Family (car) tree Car Company Family Tree know your history folks! __________________ http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/6018/sepiasig9kf.gif

03-27-08, 03:07 PM	#2 (permalink)
sam o nela CAP CAP M* F*R! Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: SoCal Posts: 9,326 Car 1: '87L, 5 speed Sedan Car 2: '71 Datsun PL521 iTrader: (11)	Nice! __________________ <Monocolor Paint Scheme> <JDM Clear Corners> <Cleared out Rear Turn Signals> <Acura Caliper Grill Emblem> <Independent Yellow Fog Mod> <15% Tint> <Iggee Seat Covers> <EL Reverse Glow Gauges> <Dimmer Mod> <Ford Taurus Cupholder Mod> <CC Tunk Light Mod> <Fut Short Throw Shifter> <Custom CAI> <AEM Bypass Valve> <OBX Headers> <Magnaflow High Flow Cat> <Dynomax Super Turbo Muffler> <Drilled/Slotted Rotors> <Painted Calipers> <Axxis Metal Master Pads>

03-27-08, 03:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
EarlThePearl Holla at Ya Boy Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,011 Car 1: Acura Legend Coupe LS 1990 Car 2: Legend 1993 LS Coupe iTrader: (21)	Very interesting. There is alot of information on that Website that i did not know about. The site is up to date also. I just read in the paper just this morning that TATA purchased Jaguar and LandRover from Ford for about 1.7Billion and Ford originally purchased each division for about 2.2 Billion seperately. __________________ Last edited by EarlThePearl : 03-27-08 at 03:18 PM.

03-27-08, 03:16 PM	#4 (permalink)
SuperLegend91 V2.0 Admit the obsession Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: puyallup, wa Posts: 669 Car 1: 91 LS Coupe Car 2: 89 Jeep Cherokee iTrader: (3)	nice! So let me get this straight-nissan owns renault or renault owns nissan? It is kinda hard to tell __________________ Finally back in an Ac. 91' pearl white legend coupe 6K HID's, intrax springs, weaponR intake, tint, excessively loud exhaust 17" TL wheels GS style Piaa fogs

03-27-08, 05:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
samblaze Sherwood GS Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lakewood, OH Posts: 2,129 iTrader: (10)	I invest and trade stocks in multiple markets so I had to learn me all this to make some $'s and not be dependent on a job accountable to my stupid bosses all my life. Not there yet, but getting closer! __________________ 86 Saab 900S Coupe 5MT 94 Acura Legend GS 6MT 04 Subaru Forester XS A/T

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03-27-08, 10:20 PM	#10 (permalink)
Xcaliber003 Eh...What up Doc Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,261 Car 1: 1989 Acura Legend LS 4Dr iTrader: (0)	^ Warning! I might have to start picking your brain. I'm looking to create assets in the stock market as well. Nothing big yet, just putting aside money here and there (5%) for investments. GM owns some of Ferrari, WOW. So is a Vette a poor man's Ferrari? BMW, and Honda are still independent, and mostly isolated. __________________ "love em all,trust a few,and fear none". . .Mos Def "Don't look at your car as it is now, see it the way it'll be when you're done fixin it up." "ridin down the block like what else should a brotha do." Last edited by Xcaliber003 : 03-27-08 at 11:04 PM.

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