FF Drifter

So my thinking is that wider tires gives more contact patch which makes for better dry traction. However an article I read in an old Sport Compact Car (AWD wet/dry racing of some sort) overly wide tires become "boats that cars slide around on" or something to that effect.

OEM tire sizes (205/60-15) make for a contact patch of about 35 square inches (7in x 5in). I'm running 225/50-16 in the front with a fat 88 square inches of contact patch (8in x 11in) and in the latest rain I've found that I am much more prone to hydroplaning at speed. I didn't have problems like this last year when I was on factory size tires at all four corners.

Is this because my tires are much wider/bigger contact patches, or is wet traction decided solely by the tire design itself (grooves, channels, etc)?

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-8000K HID low-beams/PIAA Spark 8000 high-beams/PIAA Plasma GT-X corners
-Type II brakes/some weight reduction/new tires every 4-6 months
-NA1 NSX wheels: Kumho Ecsta SPT 225/50V-16R in front, Kumho Ecsta ASX 205/60V-15R in rear
-Custom built six-puck kevlar clutch/Lightened (aluminum) pulleys
-[Mugen/Showa] suspension with remote-adjustable dampers
-C35A1/C32A1 hybrid swap; smog legal (by GreenLight Auto)

 

B+O

Problem with Theory is that it only works in certain conditions. any tire can hydroplane.

Any tire can become a "boat" as it were. The wider it gets the easier the tire can be picked up by stagnant water since, yea, more hydraulic force is acting on the area, and the weight is dispersed over a larger area, making it easier. However, that's why there's tread. The design of tread has increased to the point that at any given point, the actual width of the tire and the contact points are optimal for the evacuation of water at a given speed. If the tire wasn't designed to be a wide tire, then you're going to have problems with water evacuation.

My brains gone all mushy, so i'm not sure if that made sense.

FF Drifter

So in English, you don't know either Ivan? =p

That's how I was thinking about it also. My train of thought got to the point where I decided I might be prone to MORE understeer under inclement conditions because my wider tires up front would lose grip earlier than the rears. That's where I got all confuzzled.

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-8000K HID low-beams/PIAA Spark 8000 high-beams/PIAA Plasma GT-X corners
-Type II brakes/some weight reduction/new tires every 4-6 months
-NA1 NSX wheels: Kumho Ecsta SPT 225/50V-16R in front, Kumho Ecsta ASX 205/60V-15R in rear
-Custom built six-puck kevlar clutch/Lightened (aluminum) pulleys
-[Mugen/Showa] suspension with remote-adjustable dampers
-C35A1/C32A1 hybrid swap; smog legal (by GreenLight Auto)

B+O

I wouldn't say that. I've moved from 205s to 225s Staggered and have seen nothing but better traction. in rain and dry. an inch in width added to each tire (almost) and no ill side effects. You may want to check the inner treads of your tires if you're having Hydro problems.

I don't know how much wider the NSXs are for you, but the move from 205 to 225 gave me no problems.

Again, i'm not sitting on 305s so i can't comment on that. Tread is the only thing keeping the tire on the road. a 205 slick tire in the rain will have less grip than a 285 grooved tire in the rain. same is true for a 205 grooved tire, it'll be less prone to slipping than a 185 slick.

Jake@Tirerack.com

I would agree that skinnier is better at resisting hydroplaneing, much like snow tires in the snow they create more pounds per square inch to bite through it rather than floating on the top. At slower speeds the wider tire would be better handling though. Quality of the tire would obviously play a factor has well and the tread depth.

Blackend

Wider tire has to move more water further than a skinnier tire at the same speed. Consider that as water moves out of the treads, the resistance increases exponentially since there is more to move.

At least that makes sense to me

Maybe we should get Jake to test it out for us. Grab two of the same tires in different widths and let us know what happens when it rains next!

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B+O

The snow concept is something that also played in my mind about this whole thing. But when you go through snow (snow being a solid) with a lower propensity for getting the frick out the way of a rolling tire, the skinnier tire makes sense.

If a narrower tire was more liable to cut through water, it would make sense for normal tires to be as wide as model T wheels. The problem here is that if you don't excavate the water from the tire in a timely and efficient manner the tire will hydroplane. Motocycles should have NO problem splashing through huge puddles of water, but they do have problems and do it fast enough you will end up on your side.

The lower you treadblocks, the less the flow. however bad the tire design is, if it doesn't have wide enough valleys between the treadblocks, water will not flow fast enough, that's when you hydroplane.

It's more based on tread pattern than actual tire width.

In basic form, if a formula 1 car performed better on a thinner rain tire, they'd use it.

FF Drifter

Good thinking. My tires are still within legal limit but they're rather bad in the rain of all-season tires. Since it hardly rains in San Diego I'm going to hold off on switching tires for now but it does make me think twice about going out on the road (tread should still be good for a few months).

__________________


-8000K HID low-beams/PIAA Spark 8000 high-beams/PIAA Plasma GT-X corners
-Type II brakes/some weight reduction/new tires every 4-6 months
-NA1 NSX wheels: Kumho Ecsta SPT 225/50V-16R in front, Kumho Ecsta ASX 205/60V-15R in rear
-Custom built six-puck kevlar clutch/Lightened (aluminum) pulleys
-[Mugen/Showa] suspension with remote-adjustable dampers
-C35A1/C32A1 hybrid swap; smog legal (by GreenLight Auto)

mellofelow

interesting thread. Makes sense because in general, there are more rubber surface than grooves. And as you increase the tire surface by going wider, the more surface area will be in contact with liquid.

Snow skiing is a good example. When snow is powdery, use fat skis to float.

murderotica

Think about it in sea-faring terms... The more surface area the hull has, the better it floats. This is due to the high surface tension of water. Thus, more surface area will hold more weight above water. When you add forward motion into the equation, it becomes even easier for the object to stay afloat. Thus, more contact area on your tires makes you more prone to hydroplaning.

Did that make sense?

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blkonblkcpe

It all deals with pounds per square inch. I always thought wider in snow was better but NOPE. A skinnier tire lays more pounds per square inch of rubber to the ground, so, naturally more more weight=more friction, or traction if you will!

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Blood Riot

posting to subscribe, I need to read all of this in detail later lol, Now I'm worried since I my wheels are 8" in the front and 10" in the back, cant remember tire size but I know they are wide .

jkurl

bald wide tires are a little worse in the rain than equally bald stock tires in regards to hydro planing only. The operative word in the previous sentence was bald, bald weaning worn to low for the water groves to work right, not bald as in smooth, but that is bald to. Wider imo is better, maybe a little worse for mpg but worth it in traction and handling. My hope is to someday rock 9" wheels on my coupe and wrap them in either 235/40's or 245/40's if I can without rubbing.

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misdeismo

pounds per square inch and water surface tension are the reasons that wider tires hydroplane easier. Think of it this way if you have a pen that weighs 10grams and drop it point first, into a bowl of water, it will go right through the water to the bottom because that 10grams is acting only on the small portion of water where the pen tip meets its surface (more pounds per square inch). Now if you had a wooden board that weighed the same 10grams and dropped it into the water flat, it would float because the entire weight is dispersed along the board's flat surface (less pounds per square inch). Now the explanation is that water has surface tension, meaning the water molecules do not want to separate from each other. This surface tension will hold up a certain amount of weight before it gives way. With skinnier tires the weight is acting on a small part of the water and can overcome the tension because all the weight is concentrated on a small contact surface. With a wider tire, the same weight is dispersed over the wider contact patch reducing the weight each part of the tire puts on the water. This increases the chance of hydroplaning RELATIVE to a tire wih the exact same tread design but narrower.

Makes sense?

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dasficktauf

i feel like i just read and re read the same theory multiple times by many multiple people

but atleast believe its been solved

unless you guys want me to call up my buddy at tire pros.. get some more opinions

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