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Engine rebuild is done, need advice

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#21 ·
Use a standard Gasket !!

Nick

Wow ! That is some leakage Nick. This is my advice Nick, Don't go for Copper Gaskets again, it's too much of a risk - you are doing the Research and Development work for these guys - they are the ones who should be testing the Gasket, not you. Ask for a refund (at the least! really they should be charged for the cost of rebuilding the engine again). Just get a Standard Head Gasket set, then you know it is going to work. You are not going to see or feel any real benefit out of Copper HG's Nick, despite what people say. Speak to a real Automobile Engineeer for advice, and I guarantee he will stay 'Stick with the original specification Gaskets'.
You should only fit the Copper ones if they have been thouroghly tested and proven in real life, over hundreds of thousands if miles in a lot of cars - and they haven't!
Remember Nick, Honda know what they are doing, if Copper was best then they would use copper.
 
#23 ·
Re: Use a standard Gasket !!

AlanJ said:

Remember Nick, Honda know what they are doing, if Copper was best then they would use copper.
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I wish I can agree with you on this one but I don't. If Honda knew what they were doing, we wouldn't be experiencing a blown headgasket to begin with. It is a notorious problem with the Legend, a major engineering flaw. Unfortunately also they do not take the liberty of acknowledging this design flaw and make it a recall item :mad:

We're hoping that Honda at least would have re-designed the replacement headgaskets that are available to us when we run into this problem.

Copper gaskets are good if you want to run any heavy F.I. or major shots of NOS, or if you are constantly ripping your engine apart and do not want a new head gasket everytime you put it back together.

I wish you luck Nick on resolving this issue with KMS. In a way my poor financial situation helped me by not allowing me to purchase the HG from KMS and expereincing the same problems.

G
 
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#25 ·
Re: Re: Use a standard Gasket !!

theGodfather said:


I wish you luck Nick on resolving this issue with KMS. In a way my poor financial situation helped me by not allowing me to purchase the HG from KMS and expereincing the same problems.

G
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Same here, that's the only reason I didn't get those, but if I would have, I would have one heck of a problem right now once the shop would have put the engine back together, what an awful thought.
 
#27 ·
Head Gaskets dudes!

Nick, checking the block with a strait edge and feeler gauge will not give you the precision you need to check for the flatness it takes to seal w/copper. I have built many engines in my day and that check just wont cut it. I know you didn't want to take the motor out of the car but to seal copper both mateing surfaces must be machined flat. Not just look flat!There are a couple of ways to flaten it in the car if it's not too far out. If anti-freeze got into the bearings you must pull it all apart now anyway or it won't last long. Anti-freeze and the material bearings are made of don't mix!:2cool:
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
Re: Head Gaskets dudes!

2Badd4u said:
Nick, checking the block with a strait edge and feeler gauge will not give you the precision you need to check for the flatness it takes to seal w/copper. I have built many engines in my day and that check just wont cut it. I know you didn't want to take the motor out of the car but to seal copper both mateing surfaces must be machined flat. Not just look flat!There are a couple of ways to flaten it in the car if it's not too far out. If anti-freeze got into the bearings you must pull it all apart now anyway or it won't last long. Anti-freeze and the material bearings are made of don't mix!:2cool:
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I was told by a few sources that as long as the copper alloy was right and I coated the copper gaskets properly with the FelPro spray they will seal with the setup I have. After speaking with KMS they agreed that I will most likely require a softer copper alloy.

As far as the anti-freeze in the bearings... There wasn't an excessive amount in the oil but enough to see it in the oil. I can't inspect the main bearings but the cam bearings were fine when I pulled the heads. Then again, I may not have ran the engine long enough to get the bad oil up into the rocker arm assembly.

I am still debating on putting stock gaskets back on :( Simply because I can't afford to keep tearing down the engine.
 
#29 ·
hey guys on the stock head gaskets, it's not an enginereing problem. they were not assembled correct at the factory, they get lazy and don't torque the heads down right. ford has the same problem every engine they build now, a head gasket blows within 70,000 miles. i have worked as a tech for Ford and honda dealers. i would use the stock head gaskets, just torque them right.
 
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Discussion starter · #31 ·
Dave C ver2.0 said:
As many times as those heads have been off I'd consider replaceing all the bolts/studs with new.
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Yep, I did that :)

Also about the factory not torquing the bolts correctly. I believe they do torque them correctly but the problem lies in time they get stretched and loosened. The Legend's head bolts are not torque-to-yield bolts and they should be retorqued after the first run, then again after like 500 - 1000 miles. I will do this after this gasket replacement.
 
#32 ·
Use Standard Gaskets

I've just had my HG done and I fitted standard Gaskets, not the Genuine Honda/Acura ones but good quality aftermarket ones. The Garage that is doing the job is a reputable business, and they say that good quality aftermarket are the same quality as original OEM. Honda dont have a factory that makes Gaskets, they just buy them in from a Gasket manufacturer.
The mechanic working on my car said that it isnt a HG failing that causes the car to overheat, a HG failure is caused by a failure somewhere else, the engine overheats and it is that that causes the HG to fail.
I guess like most guys who have had HG failures, I neglected my car a bit, I was more intersted in spending money on new Alloy wheels, suspension upgrades etc etc and didnt service the car, so neglect caused the car to overheat and the HG went !!

Bottom Line is - Make maintenance the priority, and only then spend money on making it look good, then you have a real good chance that the engine will last forever.
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
Re: Use Standard Gaskets

AlanJ said:

The mechanic working on my car said that it isnt a HG failing that causes the car to overheat, a HG failure is caused by a failure somewhere else, the engine overheats and it is that that causes the HG to fail.
I guess like most guys who have had HG failures, I neglected my car a bit, I was more intersted in spending money on new Alloy wheels, suspension upgrades etc etc and didnt service the car, so neglect caused the car to overheat and the HG went !!

Bottom Line is - Make maintenance the priority, and only then spend money on making it look good, then you have a real good chance that the engine will last forever.
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From my experience with Legends thus far there is almost no preventive maintenance that can be done to avoid a blown headgasket.

It appears that overtime the headbolts stretch and the #3 cylinder, being in the rear, doesn't get as much cooled anti-freeze as the other two pistons infront of it causing it to run hotter which is why the rear pistons go first.

Since our headbolts are not torque-to-yield bolts they do not stretch on installation but instead will stretch over-time. This mixed with the hotter running temperatures of the rear cylinders causes a blown headgasket.

The preventive maintenance for this would be every 30,000 - 50,000 miles pull off the valve covers and retorque each headbolt.

I re-used my original headbolts in my last engine rebuild which were stretched and caused my headgaskets to die at 50k miles.
 
#34 ·
HG Again

Nick D,

IF what you are saying is correct then it would follow that ALL Legends experience HG failure.
I'm probably have the same dilemma as everyone here, on one hand I love my car and don't want to admit they have a problem, but on the other hand I am well pissed that what was at one time the Honda Flagship car, has a serious (possibly) engineering flaw!

There does seem to be a lot of HG failures reported on this forum but how do we go about finding the truth. IF all Legends are experiencing a HG failure then we should all get together and present Honda with the facts and the evidence and see what they say.
Anyone else think it would be a good idea to set up a poll on this forum to see how many HG falures there haver been? And then take it up with Honda, I'd be happy to co-ordinate it all.

Alan J
 
#35 ·
This may sound stupid, Nick -- but are you sure your piston rings were aligned properly from the rebuild? This will also cause significant compression loss and BLUE smoke.- just a thought. But the antifreeze and WHITE smoke does indicate leaking from the heads. Let us know what you find out.
 
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Discussion starter · #36 ·
joeman said:
This may sound stupid, Nick -- but are you sure your piston rings were aligned properly from the rebuild? This will also cause significant compression loss and BLUE smoke.- just a thought. But the antifreeze and WHITE smoke does indicate leaking from the heads. Let us know what you find out.
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I am certain without a doubt it was the headgasket as you can see carbon buildup shooting out from each cylinder on the gasket.
 
#38 ·
i forgot who said this but they are right, you should retorque the head about 1000-2000 miles after the head gaskets are replaced, then do it every 30,000 miles after that. i just bought a 92 coupe and wanted to see how the head bolts were and acually found a few under the torque specs (mostly by the #3 cyl.)
so i would suggest everyone do this.
 
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#39 ·
Texan1983 said:
i forgot who said this but they are right, you should retorque the head about 1000-2000 miles after the head gaskets are replaced, then do it every 30,000 miles after that. i just bought a 92 coupe and wanted to see how the head bolts were and acually found a few under the torque specs (mostly by the #3 cyl.)
so i would suggest everyone do this.
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how difficult is it to get to the headbolts to retorque?
 
#40 ·
not that hard, just pull the valve covers and you should be able to get to the head bolts. i forget the sequence but you need to find it. (look in any repair manual) torque it down.
 
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