Acura Legend Forum banner
1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Apologies, however I am desperate

Hi All,
It has been a while since I posted on here, been somewhat rather busy with work.
Now I do apologise in advance for posting yet another thread asking 'what is wrong with my car' however I have exhausted all my knowledge and apparently the Honda dealerships knowledge as well.

The problem goes back nearly two years and the car is still sitting in the driveway, I am just hoping that somebody might be able to think out of the square.
So here it is...

The idle jumps up and down and it is running so rich that the smoke and unburnt fuel coming out of the exhaust is endless.
on occassion I get the CEL come on indicating a code 43 and or 44 (Left and right fuel supply system)
Now I think the best way to determine the problem is to rule out what the problem is...

Things to rule out:

Both oxygen sensors read below 1.0 Volt at idle and close to 1.0 volt at WOT the reading doesn't really change that much. One O2 was suspected to be faulty so it was replaced, now they both read very similar voltages as said above.

TW Sensor - I have put in a new water temperature sensor, genuine Honda TW sensor.

Thermostat - The top radiator hose was hotter than the bottom one, so I replaced the thermostat with a new one.

Spark Plugs - All new platinum plugs (being killed by the rich micture)

Fuel injectors - all re-conditioned and bench tested.

Radiator - Top takn replaced and fully flushed out, no more leaks (Cooling system has been bled over and over and there is no more bubble however the fluctuating/jumping idle continues).

Have changed over the fuelk filter and fuel pressure regulator that made no difference so I believe we can rule them out.

Possible faulty parts...

Ignition coil was replaced with a second hand one, from memory there is a way to test it so I will have another look at that.

Coil Packs - Were supposedly tested by Honda, three were replaced, again I believe they can be tested I shall have to look into that but I am pretty confident about them.

The thing that get's me is that yesterday it was running so smooth after I had it up to full operating temperature, idling nicely no smoke or anything, then today it could barely run it was choking that much even at operating temperature. I took it for a quick drive and there was so much petrol going into the motor it died the more I accelerated Something intermittent but what...

Any suggestions, thoughts, tips would be appreciated. I have been trying to get this car running for my mother for what seems like forever.

A set of free clear corners for a G1 sedan are up for grabs for the person who has the answer :D (I know this is the G2 section but I don't have anything else to bribe you with :giggle:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Nobody has any suggestions? :confused:

Come on, I am at my witt's end. I am at the point where the car is going to have to go...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,330 Posts
Check each cylinders compression.. you may have a HG blown between the cylinders and leaking compression and oil.. Then when you turn the car off the oil turns to gunk and seals the cylinder for a time. That was actually the first sign of the BHG on my 1992 legend.. If its been sitting a couple years it might have a stuck valve ( not sure if hondas work this way since i am used to OHV not OHC), try taking off the valve covers and dumping a can of marvel mystery oil on them. I have seen it unlock motors that had completely rusted shut. They ran like hell afterwards, but it still unlocked them ;) That seems pretty doubtful though, since you said its intermittent. Still possible though, since sometimes the springs can intermittently seize up. The coil packs can be tested by using an ohmmeter between the two terminals.

Another idea, and again i may be leading you down a totally wrong path here, but no one else was bothering to respond, is to disconnect the battery for a couple hours. Then reconnect it and drive. Im not sure if hondas are the same, but with most cars the ECM will substitute values from all sensors until it has "relearned" the data range. The car will run a little rough during this time, but if it still exhibits the symptoms you are talking about, you can infer that it is not electrical/sensor related, so probably not spark related.

Remember it can only be one of 3 thing catagories. Spark, Fuel, Compression.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for the reply reboticon, I applaud you for posting a reply :bigok:

We can rule out compression as it has been tested multiple times within the last two years. One cylinder is slightly lower but they are all within specification and shouldn't make it run as it is.

It did have a blow head gasket close to two years ago and Honda did the work to fix the problem. The problem has been prevalent since they worked on the car however they will not do anything about it.

At the moment it is either too much fuel or not enough spark.
I did suspect timing and will double check it, however if it runs ok sometimes that tends to rule out timing in my mind.

Possible this new igniter is no good?
 

·
489,000 km's stil going
Joined
·
1,016 Posts
Igniter not grounded properly? Are you getting even sparks to each of those nice new plugs of yours?

If your car was sitting for two years how is your gas? did you put a dryer or stabalizer in it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The igniter should be grounded fine, I will put another wire to ground it to ensure that is not the problem and try to re-test it to make sure it is within spec.
The car has not been sitting for two years, it has been 'broken' for two years and driven intermittently throughout that time because of the fuel burning issue. So it has had regular fuel going in (over a number of months) however it has only done something like 2000 Miles in the last year because it has been running like ****.

Thanks for the suggestions, I will continue to check and re-check as the ideas come through.

I am even prepared to hand over in conjunction with the G1 clears, 10 of my hard worked Australian dollars for the person with the answer :giggle:

Here it is, put your gas masks on:

YouTube - More G2 Honda Problems

EDIT: Is there a way to determine the amount of saprk going to each plug (other then removing the coil pack to see if the engine runs better or worse)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
286 Posts
i posted this in the other section and figured i should repost in case u dont look there... my friends miata did the same thing. could be the Idle Air Control Valve(IACV). but just use your fingers and plug some vacuum holes for a second or two and see how it differs. also you can test your coil packs with a multi meter.set it to ohms. just take the two leads and put one on each side ...not sure what factory specs are but , if you set it to volts it should read overload or OL.hope this helps
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,990 Posts
At the risk of sounding stupid, have you bled the air from the cooling system? The way it idles looks like air trapped to me. And nobody has really asked the obvious question, "Is the smoke BLUE, or is it WHITE? Does it smell like oil or fuel, or is it sweet like coolant?

That's all I've got!:thumbsup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
292 Posts
i remember reading through the online manual

there is a radio noise isolator near the power stering pump pass side of engine little black box thing grounded to the engine

it said it can cause faulty/no running maybe thats it? just guessing
 

·
One Meeelion HP
Joined
·
2,956 Posts
I can help you and I'm certain we could figure it out... but this is a process of elimination and it's going to require you to do a number of tests, some of which you may have to repeat.

Let's start this assuming you have a fuel system issue. The fact that you are getting code 43 and/or code 44 show that it is not just one cylinder affected but cylinders on both banks.

My first test would be fuel pressure at KOEO, idle and under load. But I'm assuming you dont have a pressure tester. I would start with the fuel pressure regulator. Inspect the return hose and line going from regulator for kinks. Remove the vacuum line from the regulator and see if there is gasoline residue in the vacuum line which can happen if the diaphram insde of the regulator breaks. If everything looks good, grab a few feet of hose that will fit on the return line nipple on the regulator. Run the other end of the hose into a clear container suitable for gas (glass?). Start the car and run at idle, there should be a steady stream of gas coming from the return line. If the car runs better at this point then there is a blockage somewhere in the return line to the tank. If there is little or no gas coming from the line then replace the regulator. Also, just to double check, remove the vacuum line to the regulator and run the engine to check for gas leaking.

-Matt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Thanks again to all who replied.
I attempted to do a number of test today to find out some more information. However the car will not start at all now. (This happened about 6 months ago and teh igniter was replaced with a second hand one)

So here is what I was able to test even though it won't start no following the guide fromm Mike Diaz (G2 Legend God) "Does your Legend Crank but not start?"

Have inspected grounds and vacuum lines, have checked these mutliple times and they seem to be ok. Running extra wires from the negative side of the battery to the motor, body , fuel rail and ignitor makes no difference. I can;t 'spray' anything to confirm lack of vacuum leaks as the car won't start as forementioned however they all pass visual inspection and I have crimped most in the past to see if it affected idle and nothing happened.

Timing belt is on and the timing marks on the cam pulleys line up with those on the engine. There is a little bit of slack on the belt on the upper side however I assume that is normal and is picked up by the tensioner once the engine is running.
After trying to start the engine for a few minutes I took out the spark plugs, all comepletely soaked in petrol. so there is definetely fuel going there (maybe too much but I can't test at this stage)

SPARK - Pulled out the spark plugs, inserted them in the end of the coil packs and put them all against the intake manifold for an earth. None of them spark. This means it is very very unlikely that it is the coil packs as they won't all go bad at once. So we can rule coil packs out for the moment.
Main relay I have hooked up to 12 volts and tested for continuity accordingly. Continuity existed as it should have, but not between the sensor and the ground so everything is ok there, so we can rule that out as well.
Crank angle sensor is good, all pins read about 680-690 Ohms as they should and there is no short in the circuit going back to the ECU, we can rule this out.
Continuity has been tested on both sides of the igniter. The bottom side (6 pin) connector does not have continuity to the ground, nor should it so that side is fine. The top connector (8 pin) has continuity to the ground except for for black wires, so everything is as it should be.

Now what we can deduce from this information (if I am correct, and please let me know if I am not or if anybody else has varying ideas on the problem taking into account the above tests.) is that if the crank angle sensor is fine then the ECU could be bad redulting in a faulty, intermittent spark OR this is the third igniter to go bad on me. However do igniter's run fine and then sometimes bad and then ok?

So these are the tests done so far today. Let me know your thoughts and comments.

One more question to tickle your brain... if it is the ECU or the igniter (which by the way I am going to need, if anybody wants to send me over some I would be very grateful) how come when the motor get's warmed up and after a good flog on the freeway the engine seems to run better/smoother?

Thanks again.

EDIT: Just noticed as well, if the crank angle sensor is disconnected the ECU picks up the fault straight away i.e. the CEL does not go off. So I don't know if this means the ECU is ok or if that is just standard or what lol. Starting to lose my mind again... :giggle:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Update, there is a tiny tiny little bit of spark there, I managed to get it started but it soon died after choking itself.
Igniter and or ECU causing tiny little bit of spark... anything else?
I will go re-check the grounds as well.

Another update: There is definetely Ground 12 V going to each coil pack so the radio resistor things are not stopping any of the negative power/ground to the coil packs which is good.
However, when the engine is cranked, should there be Positive 12 V going to the other terminal on the coil pack?
When I crank it there is only about 0.6 V going to the coil packs from the igniter....
Also the wires going into the igniter are giving about the same Volts, somewhere between 0.4-0.6 V when the engine is cranked.
 

·
One Meeelion HP
Joined
·
2,956 Posts
Thanks for completely ignoring my post :rolleyes:

It sounds like a fuel system issue, and it sounds like your motor wont start because its flooded with fuel. Pull a plug and check to see if its wet.

-Matt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,503 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks for completely ignoring my post :rolleyes:

It sounds like a fuel system issue, and it sounds like your motor wont start because its flooded with fuel. Pull a plug and check to see if its wet.

-Matt
I did not ignore your post. I appreciate the information you provided, however you started diagnosing the fuel system as the culprit, although I am getting a code 44 & 43 which relates directly to a problem with the left and right fuel system, I also believe that the very weak spark could cause the rich micture to mess with the O2's which would give the fuel supply system CEL. The spark plugs are completely soaked in petrol which I mentioned.
As I can not start the car I can't test the fuel regulator. So I would rather assume it is a spark problem at the moment. If you are able to help out starting with assuming it is a spark problem so I can get the car started then we might be able to get somewhere.
Thoughts/comments?
 

·
One Meeelion HP
Joined
·
2,956 Posts
I did not ignore your post. I appreciate the information you provided, however you started diagnosing the fuel system as the culprit, although I am getting a code 44 & 43 which relates directly to a problem with the left and right fuel system, I also believe that the very weak spark could cause the rich micture to mess with the O2's which would give the fuel supply system CEL. The spark plugs are completely soaked in petrol which I mentioned.
As I can not start the car I can't test the fuel regulator. So I would rather assume it is a spark problem at the moment. If you are able to help out starting with assuming it is a spark problem so I can get the car started then we might be able to get somewhere.
Thoughts/comments?
I've been working on cars for about 11 years and on Legends for the past 5 - I consider myself an expert Honda technician and I certainly wont lead you in the wrong direction.

Forget about the oxygen sensors, you can eliminate them right off the bat. I can go out to my car, disconnect both oxygen sensors and the car will start and run perfectly fine - minus the check engine light and poor fuel economy. I've personally tested this while I was doing my ECU chipping research.

From my experience you usually won't get a "weak" spark - especially from all 6 coil packs - its usually full spark or no spark at all.

That leads us back to the fuel supply system. If you want help from someone that has the knowledge and willingness to help you (me :yes:), clean the fuel off of the plugs with some brake cleaner or other non-residue solvent and run the pressure regulator test I spoke with you about before. Otherwise, I'd rather not waste my time with someone that already knows it all :p.

-Matt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
286 Posts
maybe your fuel pump is toasted...becasue its sounds the same way my achieva did for some time.ut would start sometimes and then run fine on highway...connect a pressure gauge on the poppet on the fuel rail...i think we have one anyway..not sure cuz i wrecked mine a while back....but it should read about 40 psi and im guessing around 20 to start it? help me out sr5guy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,474 Posts
I think your valve seals are bad... the idle is flucuating because the o2 sensors are telling it too much fuel at one interval and not enough on the other.

check all of your spark plugs, the fould ones are the ones with the bad seals, and or low cylinder compression, if it is burning oil.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,330 Posts
Asked an ASE certified friend of mine about this for you. He said 9 times out of 10 if you are getting both codes 43 and 44 you most likely have a large vacuum leak. He said to unfoul your plugs, hook up a vacuum gauge and see what kind of readings you are getting.
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top