[Jay P]

Hi, at last I realize what the rusty powder in the distributor is, a failing bearing I guess.
Charming that acura made the legend distributor non serviceable, how the hell was it assembled?
I'm thinking I will try to open it up, swap the bearing and somehow put it back together again.

Any ideas?

thank, Jay

 

[Muffo]

considering the time involved you might be better to get one off ebay or go for a second hand 1 and it only takes a few minuts to change

 

[paulo57509]

Hi, at last I realize what the rusty powder in the distributor is, a failing bearing I guess.
Charming that acura made the legend distributor non serviceable, how the hell was it assembled?
I'm thinking I will try to open it up, swap the bearing and somehow put it back together again.

Any ideas?

thank, Jay

Forget it. You'll never get the TDC sensor re-aligned and you'll get a CEL code.

The sensor is underneath this plate. Even though you note the location of the "tick" marks.....

You still have to remove the sensor fom the plate in order to get to the bearing.....

There's enough "slop" in the sensor mounting that even though you get the plate back in the correct location, the sensor itself will be out of position.

You're better off just getting a rebuilt distributor.

Sorry for the huge photos.

 

[wcshua]

will the tdc sensor cause a legend to stall while driving and not get spark in the coil even though you changed the coil plugs wires and ect. and give you a code 8 on the ecu

 

[l4zy415]

if your not getting spark, it could be your wires. even if they are new, sometimes the store can give you a bad one. that has happened to me once. i just replaced the wires and she was running back to normal. the first time i replaced my wires, my car didn't want to run and it was spattering and backfiring. now it doesn't do it anymore. what kind of wires do you have?

 

[Jay P]

tdc alignment

Hi, could one feel for tdc on the #1 piston with a screwdriver and then adjust the tdc pickup in situ so it was giving the signal at actual tdc? I'm not sure how significant a slight misallignment would be. Is the pot that adjustis ignition timing in the weird vacuum hose filled box on the firewall provided to correct slight tdc sensor variance? How would the ecu know the tdc sensor was a degree off?

Hmm, maybe I'll see if I can measure the signal from the sensor before I get brave and open it up. I see from your photo it looks like the plate is sort of swagged into place. I still wonder if a clever guy with too much time on his hands could......

any idea what the required bearing number is?

cheers, Jay

 

[Jay P]

those photos

Oh yeah, BTW, don't apologies for the huge photos, they're great!
In fact, I'd sure like to see a similar pic of the bearing, it'd be a great addition for anyone who looks this up later (FAQ this if the repair works out?)

thanks

Jay

 

[roostonu]

It has been a long time since I looked for a bearing for one of these distributors, but years ago you could not get a replacement bearing. There was a year or two that you could get one for a Hitachi distributor but not the Tech distributors. Honda wouldn't sell them saying it was too difficult to align the sensor. The sensor is no big deal to put back in the same place if you are careful in marking the location. The only way to get a bearing was to get the number off the bearing and get it from a bearing retailer, but Honda did away with that by making it a special bearing with a standard OD but a special size ID that was not available off the shelf.

So unless something has changed, you will not find a replacement bearing.

The other problem is that if the bearings is bad, there is a good chance the rotor has beat up the sensor due to play in the shaft.

You also won't find a seal which needs to be replaced as well.

 

[paulo57509]

Hi, could one feel for tdc on the #1 piston with a screwdriver and then adjust the tdc pickup in situ so it was giving the signal at actual tdc? I'm not sure how significant a slight misallignment would be. Is the pot that adjustis ignition timing in the weird vacuum hose filled box on the firewall provided to correct slight tdc sensor variance? How would the ecu know the tdc sensor was a degree off?

Hmm, maybe I'll see if I can measure the signal from the sensor before I get brave and open it up. I see from your photo it looks like the plate is sort of swagged into place. I still wonder if a clever guy with too much time on his hands could......

any idea what the required bearing number is?

cheers, Jay

I ordered an extra bearing when I decided to replace the bearing in my distributor, but I can't remember where I stashed it. I looked for it, but came up empty.

The timing pot in the black box is used to manually adjust the timing, but it only has a +/- 2 to 3 degree range, IIRC.

The photos.....you guessed it. I took them while thinking of doing a bearing DIY, but the sensor got thrown off and set a trouble code. Can that idea. I messed with the position of the plate that the sensor is fastened to (rotating it about the shaft), but no dice. It's a hit or miss thing without some kind of electronic equipment to calibrate the position of the sensor with the reluctor (the toothed shaft thing) relative to the distributor cap tower.

Someone here tried a bearing replacement a few years ago thinking he could put together some kind of calibration method. IIRC, the thread died with no conclusion on whether it worked or not. I'm assuming that it didn't.

 

[Jay P]

loosing your bearing

Hmm, conflicting evidence... I'm suspicious the ecu can tell if the tdc sensor is spot on, surely there is some slop in mounting the distributor. I wonder if the issue is sensor to reluctor distance, that's what brass feeler gauges were made for I think.

As for the bearing, Paulo says he has one but lost it, roostonu says they are odd Honda only bearing, damm, not unlikely as that's what honda puts in their standard transmissions, they went out of their way to use non-standard bearings that they could control the supply of, bloody annoying.

I'll try my acura dealer for a bearing, but hey, wait, google-ing "acura distributor bearing" got me to http://www.cbrbearing.com/monthly_specials.htm
where I found a listing for a........

"Nachi 6001/012 2NSL 12.5x28x8mm. This is the hard to find Honda Accord distributor bearing. Latest seal design from Nachi. Brand new stock with high temp grease. $19.00 Each"

Hmmm, does the internet allow us at last to locate these weird bearings from a non honda source? Even those that honda says are not available.
Whoo boy!

So can one of you, all of you, please post with bearing numbers or dimensions.

Is there more than one type of distributor? All 1st gens the same?

surely we can whip this one!

cheers, jay

 

[Chomot]

I had a bad dist to and this is what I did to fix it as cheap as I could

First contact this guy Dan Spang [[email protected]]

and tell him you want a dist with a new sensor as what they do is test old ones they get and sell them as rebuitlt.

Then order a rebuilt one through Autoparts wearhouse.

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/details/QQAcuraQQLegendQQSnapQQDistributorQQ19881990QQ83720E.html

This should get you what you need as cheap as possible.

Good luck

 

[paulo57509]

Long Post....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Hmm, conflicting evidence... I'm suspicious the ecu can tell if the tdc sensor is spot on, surely there is some slop in mounting the distributor. I wonder if the issue is sensor to reluctor distance, that's what brass feeler gauges were made for I think.

As for the bearing, Paulo says he has one but lost it, roostonu says they are odd Honda only bearing, damm, not unlikely as that's what honda puts in their standard transmissions, they went out of their way to use non-standard bearings that they could control the supply of, bloody annoying.

I'll try my acura dealer for a bearing, but hey, wait, google-ing "acura distributor bearing" got me to http://www.cbrbearing.com/monthly_specials.htm
where I found a listing for a........

"Nachi 6001/012 2NSL 12.5x28x8mm. This is the hard to find Honda Accord distributor bearing. Latest seal design from Nachi. Brand new stock with high temp grease. $19.00 Each"

Hmmm, does the internet allow us at last to locate these weird bearings from a non honda source? Even those that honda says are not available.
Whoo boy!

So can one of you, all of you, please post with bearing numbers or dimensions.

Is there more than one type of distributor? All 1st gens the same?

surely we can whip this one!

cheers, jay

I purchased the bearings here:

http://www.mcmaster.com/

If the bearing number you state above is the one, the number is decoded thus:
Bearing No.: 6001
For Shaft Diameter: 12mm

More specs on this bearing:
OD: 28mm
Width: 8mm

Price: ~$6 US depending on if it's open, double shielded or double sealed.

As far as the ECU knowing where TDC is, I don't think it cares. I think the TDC sensor is mis-named as it only provides the ECU with a signal to fire the spark plugs.

Consider electronic ignition of the early '70's. It used the same kind of setup that's in the Legend distributor. As the reluctor tooth (it'll have the same amount of "teeth" as the engine has cylinders) passes over the sensor (in this case the TDC sensor) the ignition control box would get some kind of magnetic/electrical pulse. This pulse tells the ignition box to shut off the primary windings in the coil, there by creating a high voltage output in the coil secondary windings which fires the plugs.

Ignition timimg in these early systems was was not controlled elctronically, but controled by 1) rotating the distributor to establish baseline timing, 2) vacuum advance diaphram and 3) mechanical/centrifical advance.

Fast forward to the 2.7 Legend. It still uses the same triggering mechanism as the early electronic ignition systems noted above.

However, ignition timing is now controled by the ECU and I suspect it works like this (engine at idle):

The distributor is in a fixed position; you can't rotate the distributor to establish baseline timing. For sake of argument, let's assume that the distributor sends the magnetic/electrical pulse to the ECU (the ignition control is now contained within) at TDC.

The ECU is programmed to shut off the primary coil windings to fire the plugs when the crackshaft is 15 degrees BTDC. (Note: I suspect the ECU is actually firing the plugs at 45 degrees AFTER that last trigger pulse it receives from the TDC sensor (360/6=60-15=45) for the next cylinder in the firing order).

Why the trouble code is set after messing with the distributor/TDC sensor to replace the bearing is because I believe that the ECU DOES care where the crankshaft position is relative to when it receives the trigger to fire the spark plugs. If it is outside of the +/- 3 degrees of adjustabilty at the pot that's in the black box, it sets the trouble code. A six degree window isn't much, but I think there's enough slop in the sensor mounting that allows for this much inaccuracy. Why else would there be an adjustment in the plate that mounts the TDC sensor?

I could be wrong, but this is how I think it works not having bothered to look at the service manual.

Bottom line, I think it's money and time well spent to just get a rebuilt distributor and install it.

 

[KAHruzer]

Paulo, if what you suggest is true, then it's not the position of the sensor itself causing the Code to trigger, rather the rotational position of the reluctor tooth to the sensor. The ECU has only the last known position fix and if the tooth isn't properly relative (within that +-3-deg) then the code gets thrown.

I was having trouble with the sensor mount causing this much variation since it's a fixed mounting with two screws, and an adjustable slot which could be marked fairly closely.

Aside from all that, I would think an ECU reset would clear this setting and seek a new fix. But, don't know.

 

[paulo57509]

Paulo, if what you suggest is true, then it's not the position of the sensor itself causing the Code to trigger, rather the rotational position of the reluctor tooth to the sensor. The ECU has only the last known position fix and if the tooth isn't properly relative (within that +-3-deg) then the code gets thrown.

I was having trouble with the sensor mount causing this much variation since it's a fixed mounting with two screws, and an adjustable slot which could be marked fairly closely.

Aside from all that, I would think an ECU reset would clear this setting and seek a new fix. But, don't know.

Yes, I agree that it's not a faulty sensor, but the incorrect position of the sensor that sets the code.

Before I disassembled my distributor to replace the bearing, I noted the location of the plate that the sensor is mounted to relative to the distributor housing. What keyed me to this was the little tick marks on the plate and the adjustment slots in the plate and the housing in which you can place a screwdriver blade and use it to carefully rotate the plate with the mounting screws loose.

When I re-assembled the distributor, I replaced the plate in the same spot using the witness marks left by the three mounting screw washers.

After installing the distributor and a short test drive, the ECU set the TDC sensor code. I spent the next few weeks messing wih the plate location trying to clear the code, but was unsuccessful.

I replaced the distributor with a rebuilt unit from Autozone and the code went away.

Also, I don't think the sensor was damaged during disassenbly/reassembly.

Now when I think about it, I wish I had checked the timing with a timing light. I wonder if or how far the timing was off? Hmmmm.....perhaps I could have used the timing light to get the disributor plate back into the correct position (correct after the sensor was separated from the plate, which would be different that its original position).

It also makes me wonder if the ECU sets a TDC sensor code if the timing is outside of the adjustment range of the pot in the black box, like you say.

That's the story of my bearing replacement experience....YMMV. Again, I still think it's much easier to get a rebuilt distributor.

 

[KAHruzer]

Paulo, I agree with all you state, but think you may have missed my point.

Can you confirm the reluctor was restored to the same position as when the distributor was removed from the car?

I'm thinking your sensor and plate alignment might be just fine, but the reluctor didn't get back to the same place (in rotation).

Since the reluctor shaft has the cam connector on the other end, and is a horizontal pin connection, there's only two positions possible relative to the cam. Any chance you got it 180-degs out?

Also wondered if there were anything distinguishing about the No. 1 cylinder tooth of the reluctor? Probably not, but it did cross my mind.

But, you're also correct in the wholesale replacement being the easier path.

 

[KAHruzer]

Looking at your photo of the reluctor and shaft, it appears the reluctor is symetrical about the shaft relative to the cam connector pin hole. Just to confirm, but if it is rotated by 3-degs relative, that could matter, especially if the reluctor was removed from the shaft and flipped over or reinstalled 180-degs away with the cam connector pin or such.

 

[paulo57509]

Paulo, I agree with all you state, but think you may have missed my point.

Can you confirm the reluctor was restored to the same position as when the distributor was removed from the car?

I'm thinking your sensor and plate alignment might be just fine, but the reluctor didn't get back to the same place (in rotation).

Since the reluctor shaft has the cam connector on the other end, and is a horizontal pin connection, there's only two positions possible relative to the cam. Any chance you got it 180-degs out?

Also wondered if there were anything distinguishing about the No. 1 cylinder tooth of the reluctor? Probably not, but it did cross my mind.

But, you're also correct in the wholesale replacement being the easier path.

Now you'e testing my memory. :headscrat All this happened 6 years ago!

But yes, the reluctor was in the correct position. Rotor orientation and the cam drive was noted prior to disassembly of the distributor.

 

[roostonu]

I stand corrected. I see now that the bearings have become available, but like I said, it's been many years since I looked for a bearing.

Theres a few reasons that could have made this happen.
1. Patend rights expired opening the aftermarket sales oportunity.
2. Demand sparked the need to make them available.
3. The distributor maker contracted the bearing maker to make the bearing to there specs and now the design rights have expired allowing the bearing maker to offer them for sale.

Now as far as the comment on the available bearings for manual transmissions on Hondas, I have been rebuilding Honda manual transaxles for many years and bearing kits are readily available for cheap. Also Honda manual transaxles are among the easiest to rebuild and can be overhauled in as little as 3 hours.

I'm not sure why it is so hard to get the timing correct on the sensor. But I do have a source at the local Honda Dealer that I can try to pick his brain a bit on this matter. I'll try later and update.

 

[paulo57509]

Off-Topic

The bearing for the distributor has always been an off the shelf item. Not the dealership shelf, though.

In 99.99% of cases, you can take ANY bearing that comes out of the transmission, differential, wheel hubs, distributor and even the ABS pump, take them down to the local bearing house and get a replacement. The numbers etched onto the bearings are standard across all bearing manufacturers.

You can probably get the seal that's down inside the distributor at the same place you get the bearing.

 

[roostonu]

The bearing for the distributor has always been an off the shelf item. Not the dealership shelf, though.

In 99.99% of cases, you can take ANY bearing that comes out of the transmission, differential, wheel hubs, distributor and even the ABS pump, take them down to the local bearing house and get a replacement. The numbers etched onto the bearings are standard across all bearing manufacturers.

You can probably get the seal that's down inside the distributor at the same place you get the bearing.

How far back can you say this is true because I tried that route back in the late 80's and early 90's with no luck.

I agree in most cases such as transmission and P/S pumps but as far as the distributor goes, when I tried so many years ago, the bearing had a standard number but the ended with a letter "J" and according to the bearing house, the "J" made the bearing special and the i.d. of the bearing on the dist. was different the the i.d. of the bearing without the "J" even though the rest of the number was the same. Come to think of it, it may have been an "S" but it was many years ago.

Maybe I was misinformed, but can you say for sure that they were available that many years ago?