[pi314159-ish]

Legend water pumps are not "bad". In most cases the pump shaft bearings begin to fail, indicatrd by coolant leaking out the weep hole. The pump continues to operate normal, this is a warning to change it. If the bearings completly fail the pump will "lock up", causing the timing belt to destroy itself. Result, bent valves .In a few cases the impeller comes off the pump shaft and the pump quits pumping, causing the engine to overheat.

Where is this weep hole? Would periodically checking this hole help identify a dying waterpump and thus prevent BHG. How do you know when a radiator goes bad? Anything else to check on the system?

Thanks.

 

[Merlin the Wrench]

use your nose to investigate if you smell antifreeze. The weephole is on the bottom of the pump and runs in to a tube/channel that dumps just above the A/C pump. Check your fluid level in the catch bottle weekly. It should be between min and max. The Rad when it cracks is usually on the top near the mounting holes. If you see traces of antifreeze on the top of the radiator it usually means it is cracked.

 

[Kasteman]

Yep, like Merlin said, it's something that's fairly easy to identify. The coolant smell is unmistakable.

 

[SID]

K, I have one to solve. I've tried a ton and I'm fed up as hell....with this overheating problem. :vomit:

Basic stuff about my car:
Maintained religiously for 135k miles, first owner. Maintained adequately for 2 years & 43k miles.
Second owner replaced cracked radiator with aftermarket aluminum and the wrong filler neck.

I owned it for 1 year had the t/b done at 182k miles. Then I noticed the upper radiator hose start bulging, so I replaced it. After that it started acting funny temp wise. Overheating about once every 3-4 weeks and it'd go away without adding coolant. I never bled the system after chaging it, so that's probably it. It kept doing it for a long time. My tranny died, got another to replace it asked the shop to replace the HG's since there was 185k miles on them. They said do the t/b while i'm in there if it's needed and the w/p cuz they go out too. I didn't know about the pump but it was fine. Test came back negative, HG's were fine and I had a crank angle sensor melting down.

Worked fine for 1 month, then started again. Eventually looked at the radiator cap. The first rubber seal split spilling coolant and preventing pressure. Got a new cap for the Legend....now it spit out more coolant via the resevoir only. It didn't leak, or drip, just spit it out. Got more caps, same thing. Decided it might be the thermostat. Changed that 4 times, with 2 different types and a lot of coolant. Problem remained the same for a bit, then got worse.

Brought it to the shop to have the cv shafts, w/p and crank angle sensor done *sensor I found out the sensor was wrong? I guess their is another....so no idea what it is called that is melting down. I didn't see it directly. So we left it * K, worked great driving 110 for 40mins back home after fixing it. Shut it off, came back later and it started overheating again, still spit it out the resevoir. Went to the shop, noticed no pressure was in the upper hose, which I'd known for a long time. Measured the cap, wrong one. Grabbed one off a toyota with 13 lbs. Worked, kind of. Much better though. Pressure and all, but still didn't retain any coolant in the upperhose after it cooled. Got a 16lb cap like the toyota one. Worked a bit better, same problem and still overheating.

K, decided to change the lower hose since the new pressure started making coolant come out at the neck of the radiator down there. During that noticed the radiator must have been installed by a dumb guy with a hammer. Neck was all dented and didn't form a seal good enough. Got a new radiator and cap that is OEM.

Here's what it does now:
When I put fluid in, I open the bleed valve and pour till full which never seems to go into the upper radiator hose. Is this right/normal? It was like this with the other radiator. Though when filled to full, a little will squirt out the bleed valve. Then I close it, run the car with cap off till fans come on 2 times. During this, the car sucks down the coolant only later as it expands to come back out the neck and eventually stops. I put the cap on, bleed it if possible, sometimes drive it or shut it off and come back later. It teased me by bumping up then coming down. Since then it's stayed pretty much steady. Though there still isn't any fluid in the upper hose when it's cool, but I hear the cap close the inner valve when I squeeze it sometimes. Also, despite it not having fluid in the upper hose, it still builds sufficent pressure when running. It reaches operating temp as a normal car does, but it doesn't give heat inside after starting from cold for about another 5 minutes after it's at opertating temp. Also, i only get heat inside while the car is running about 1700rpms or more or it goes away.

I haven't yet tried pulling the thermostat out this time with the new stuff done, but before It ran fine without it.....still spit out coolant via resoir, but it never overheated at all. Though as it got colder as you'd expect it couldn't hit operating temp while driving fast. Also when bleeding the system it kind of spurts out kind of like it could be a leak at a cylinder but I have yet to foul a plug, burn with smoke....i could swear i'm not doing something right when it comes to bleeding or a headgasket...but tests say they are fine.

anyway, help me out if you can. so tired of throwing money.
:vomit:

n8

 

[tnelson]

have you looked into changing the fans or fan relays. if the fans dont come on, it will cause overheating. this will make the radiator spit coolant etc. it will also create a lot of heat in the top end of the engine. causing the upper hose to expand etc.

 

[legendcoupe93]

try checking ur passenger side floor mat for coolet, feel along the bottem of the dash board, put ur hand way up in there and feel all around to see if u find any coolent. i kinda had similar problems, my car kept over heating, the resevior kept boiling over, too much pressure in the top rad hose, ect ect, no BHG, tho 2 mechanics said i did, my spark plugs all look new, and no smoke out the exaust. im almost sure this is the prob, after i replace my heater core, i will replace my temp sending unit, and my fan relays!
best of luck
drew

 

[SID]

thanks tnelson....i tested the relays they worked fine. All switched when power and ground were applied to the appropriate contacts. Also, there are no leaks inside the car so it's not the heater core.

Anyway, drained the coolant again and bled the system. This time I noted something. I left the cap of for a long time pouring coolant in as needed after it warmed up *didn't stick around to see if the fans turned on, but they weren't for the 10 minutes or so i was there* Anyway, despite bleeding and revving the engine lightly to move the bubbles through, still no coolant or minimal coolant gets in the upper radiator hose. Why? Is that normal or is it saying somethings wrong? Should I have the car on flat ground/incline/decline for bleeding/filling? I've always done about a 10 degree incline. I'm at a loss again.

Though I'm pretty sure it's not the HG's just since bubbles didn't continue to roll out. They did stop and I couldn't add anymore coolant, but it couldn't take in the upper hose.

Sorry about my long ass posts....just fed up.

Thanks guys.

n8

 

[Kasteman]

K, decided to change the lower hose since the new pressure started making coolant come out at the neck of the radiator down there. During that noticed the radiator must have been installed by a dumb guy with a hammer. Neck was all dented and didn't form a seal good enough. Got a new radiator and cap that is OEM.

I had that same problem, neck was all bent. Doesn't help you any, but it's odd that I had the same problem, coolant leaking through via a dent in the lower neck. Strange. Where did you get the radiator installed? Corwin Honda did mine.

Here's what it does now:
When I put fluid in, I open the bleed valve and pour till full which never seems to go into the upper radiator hose. Is this right/normal? It was like this with the other radiator.

Same thing here. I think it's normal.

It reaches operating temp as a normal car does, but it doesn't give heat inside after starting from cold for about another 5 minutes after it's at opertating temp. Also, i only get heat inside while the car is running about 1700rpms or more or it goes away.

The heater is the first thing to go in the situation of low coolant, and as it circulates with high revs, you get it back.

I haven't yet tried pulling the thermostat out this time with the new stuff done, but before It ran fine without it.....still spit out coolant via resoir, but it never overheated at all. Though as it got colder as you'd expect it couldn't hit operating temp while driving fast. Also when bleeding the system it kind of spurts out kind of like it could be a leak at a cylinder but I have yet to foul a plug, burn with smoke....i could swear i'm not doing something right when it comes to bleeding or a headgasket...but tests say they are fine.

anyway, help me out if you can. so tired of throwing money.
:vomit:

n8

Well, I hope i've given some info. I would raise a suspicious eye to the water pump maybe, although I know the work that's involved (having just DIY'd my timing belt/water pump) Take off the upper right timing belt cover, and look closely at the flat side of the belt for unusual wear. The pump might be going out. The mechanics said it was fine at the time, but you never can tell. You take the timing belt covers off and everything looks brand new, mine did, but nothing was changed for 130K miles!
I know it doesn't jive with what's happening really, but it seems like that's the only thing left to be replaced. If you decide to mess around with anything in that area, I can give you a load of DIY help. I can tear down, change and assemble in under 4 hours. You're just across town anyway, which still baffles me that we have F-M members on here.

 

[SID]

thanks kasteman.

the only problem is that I had the pump changed not more then 2000 miles ago and it's got a 3 year warranty including labor charge if it fails. The only thing I haven't done is the heads, but nothing really points at them. I mean it could possibly be them, but nothing is making sense anymore..I know the fans work too cuz they'll both turn on when I flip the air on. I supose I sould check the wires going to the relays. They turn on when the A/C is on so I don't need to check those wires, nor do I need to check the wires going to the fans from the relays.

So, I got atleast one thing I can check. If the pumps not pumping, then I'll get the shop to do it since it's covered. I think it's fine, but maybe it's not fully functioning and going out. I don't know.

n8

-though kasteman, i could probably use your help to figure out what sensor it is of mine that is going out and what it takes to replace it-

 

[SID]

k, back after some tests, but i still need a little help.

My radiator that is new is leaking right in the middle. When I stop moving, pressure builds forcing a small mist out between the fans. I removed them, yep it leaks.

The reason pressure builds when idling is cuz the fans don't turn on. Ok, here's where I need the help. I've searched through wires and all. Mainly i'm having a problem with the coolant temperature sensor. Helms says it's readings should be .5-1.2kOhms. Is this correct? Mine is at 12-25kOhms. So i went to get another. The new one has the same reading only 2kOhms less.

Is the Helms #'s correct? If they are that'd mean the new one I just picked up is bad too, right?

n8

 

[Jetdoc]

My book says at 68 deg F the resistance should be 2000-4000. For -4 deg F it should read 15000-18000. This would explain why the fan doesn't come on.

Jetdoc

 

[SID]

Thanks Jet, now does this mean that they are both not functioning properly?

The funny thing that kind of gets me anyway, is that the idle should be affected too. Unless that is controlled by the upper sensor. Either way Idle speed is fine and it senses temp properly upon start-up.

n8

 

[Jetdoc]

At 194 deg F, normal operating temp it should read 872-1024 ohms. I'm refering to the coolant temp sensor that has two wires going to it. One wire is red/white and the other is green/white. Unplug the connector and test across the terminals of the sensor. Just trying to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

Jetdoc

 

[SID]

Jetdoc, thanks again...no we weren't talking about the same sensor, but I wanted those numbers too. I gave a call to an Acura deal yeilding almost no info except he kept saying it's probably the fan timer...and he didn't have any numbers for the sensors. So I have turn again to you Jet, if you could. Do you happen to know the what the readings for the sensor are suppose to be in the radiator? These are what I'm getting mixed up....i'm told one number from the book and a different by the two sensors.

Anyway, I'm testing that upper sensor now also. Thanks,
n8

 

[Jetdoc]

I'll look it up and reply when I get home this evening.

Jetdoc

 

[Jetdoc]

Sid, After looking at the wiring diagrams it appears that the sensor on the engine drives the temp needle in the instrument cluster. The sensor on the radiator is actually a switch that that turns on to activate the cooling fans above 194 deg. So it's an on off switch.

I reviewed your previous posts on your overheating problems and it looks like you have a seeping(blown) head gasket. If it was overheating while driving at highway speeds then the problem is not related to the cooling fan system. As long as you are not leaking any fluid(hose,crack rad.,ect..) and your radiator cap is sealing correctly and you have verified that the other components are good(new w/p, radiator and cap, thermostat) the HG is the only thing left.

I feel your pain as I recently went through this same scenario.
My BHG Story

 

[SID]

Jetdoc, I agree with the seeping HG. I don't want to but I do and i'm getting prepaired to do it on monday.....DIY, may patients be with me. Anyway, I still want to combat these other things before I actually begin. I know the fans aren't turning on, and that's something really bugs me. I also know the radiator leaks. These I must fix before I do the HG's otherwise IT might be fixed only happen again when air leaks into the system.
So if it's possible, could you still look up what the actual values I should be getting from that on/off switch. I know it's got different resistances for different temps so it's not a straight on/off switch. I know at a certain resistance it'll inform the fan control to kick on the fans in low, and at another temp kick them on high. Also this is where in my book it shows the values should be between .5 - 1.2 kOhms....if this is right the one I have is wrong, and the one I got from Napa is also wrong. Can you verify the right numbers for these.

Thanks again Jet...you've been an enormous help and you can't be having all that much fun looking this stuff up.

n8

 

[Jetdoc]

Here is what I got for the radiator sensor. It should have one blue/white and one blue/green wire going to it.

183 deg F...........................1047-1255 ohms
194 deg F.............................872-1024 ohms
230 deg F.............................489-541 ohms

 

[SID]

thanks again jet....your info is totally beyond measure in value thank you again sir.

n8

 

[Jetdoc]

Sid, I've got some discrepancies with my manual. It says for
1991- cooling fans operate at low speed whan the temp reaches 183 deg and on high speed when temp reaches 194 deg. If the the coolant temp exceeds 230 it will disengauge the a/c compressor. Says coolant temp "switch" is located in thermostat housing. Resistance values same as 92
1992 - doesn't say when fans should come on. Says check coolant temp sensor. Says it's located in the thermostat housing. wiring diagram appears to be same as 1991.
1993 - Cooling fans operate anytime engine is running. speed is determined by coolant temp. Says check radiator fan control sensor located on lower radiator tank. Resistance values same as 92. Wiring diagram same as 91,92.
1994, 1995 - Same as 93 except wiring diagram updated.

Last night leaving work I turned my(1992 L) ignition to on, a/c off and noted that both fans were operating at low speed. I drove home and noted that with the engine still running that both fans were off. ???????
I walked over to my 1994 LS, turned the ignition to on and noted the fans were off. Started the engine, both fans still off. Scratched my head and went inside. Both these cars have very steady temp gauges and dont overheat.

My questions:
Do all Legends have a temp sensor in the thermostat housing and the the radiator?
Which one controls the cooling fans which one drives the temp needle or is there another sensor for the temp needle?
The wiring diagrams just arent clear.

Jetdoc