Coilover, Shocks, Struts, & Springs by B+O + Official suspension guide by Swift - The Acura Legend & Acura RL Forum
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Old 12-09-05, 01:16 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Post Coilover, Shocks, Struts, & Springs by B+O + Official suspension guide by Swift

There are 3 different types of suspension systems on cars today.

To understand what the suspension system is called to do will better help anyone understand the options some manufacturers took in designing their suspension systems.

The suspension system of a car is designed to carry the weight, control wheel movement as well as body movement and to allow tires to grip the road over a multitude of different surfaces.

a basic suspension style that's been around for ages is the Short-Long Arm(SLA) suspension. independent front suspension and 0IRS (independent rear suspension) both lend themselves to this suspension design in most cases. It's gone through many design changes but it's systematically been pretty much unchanged as far as principal is concerned.

First is the part of the wheel movement controllers, The a-arms.

this is an Radio Controlled car, but it operates on the same principal as automotive suspenions.

the two pieces connecting the chassis with the wheel are the control arms. these limit the motion of the wheel to up and down. the upper A-Arm is responsible for controlling Caster and Camber. The farther outward from the chassis the upper a-arm is from the lower a-arm give a higher Postive camber. if it's closer the the chassis, you end up with Negative camber. Caster is the fore/aft position of the Upper A arm to the lower A-Arm.

Postive caster gives the car tractability. Along with Tractability, the caster is also one of the main contributors to the steering wheel returning itself back to center after a turn, and is what makes the wheel whip around when drifters are sliding around stringing different direction drifts into one motion.

Caster is controlled SOLELY by the suspension arms in the SLA suspension, as is camber.

In older style cars there was a Shock place somewhere on the lower arm to the chassis and there was a spring cup.

there's a spring cup for the spring to sit in on the arm and it connected to the frame. to support the weight of the vehicle. this was the norm for a good while...

Then came the Strut system. notably "MacPherson Strut" system. Manufacturers flocked to this system as it was easier to produce, it was "new technology" and eliminated a few parts.



as you can see here, the strut system totally eliminated the upper control arm.

this eliminated A LOT of stress to manufacturers but added and compounded stress on the suspension system. since there was nothing to hold the top of the tire in place, the Strut had to compensate. all of the body's weight is transmitted laterally and vertically through the struts body. under normal conditions this is pretty mild, but the strut will have a shorter life due to the added lateral stress caused by the lateral force. Overall a plus for OEM.

For performance however, Struts are a "no-no" any real performance vehicle manufacturer knows that Struts are a no go. There's very few, if any, real performance cars today that don't use the SLA/Wishbone suspension system style. If you notice, only cars that are based on econoboxes still ride on struts. WRX (which was/is just a Subaru impreza) the EVO series (which was/is just a Mitsubishi lancer/mirage)

To application, Honda has been known for outstanding handling cars. In most cases the cars that honda made that handle ridiculously well are SLA styled suspensions.

In the mid 80s the Legend was introduced as a mid level luxury/sports car for the likes of the BMW 3 series and the Infiniti M30. in order to play in this crowd the Legend had to have handling and power. power was good for the car. it was much better than BMW or Infiniti could muster and the handling was better than Infiniti's M30 and one par with BMW's 3 series, with a better ride quality. How did the Legend perform this feat? Using the SLA suspension in conjunction with COIL OVER SHOCK dampers, the car was able to control its body motion and camber with aplomb. the BMW 3 series of that era used Macpherson struts, not the best idea, but it was cheaper to make.

On through the 2nd generation, the Legend again retained the Honda style double wishbone SLA suspension in front adding a "Multilink" rear suspension, that operated on the same "SLA" principle controlling camber with unequal length arms. if you were to raise a legend to full suspension travel you'll notice it has Negative camber, if you lower it to zero suspension travel, it again has Negative camber. this controlled camber allows for better grip when the car leans for a turn.

this is somewhat what the Legend's front suspension looks like. As does many other cars such as the R34 Nissan Skyline.

this is a SLA suspension with Coilover dampers.

The BMWs with IRS in the older models (the E30) had Struts in the rear with a single lower control arm when raised up it would give positive camber and when lowered would provide an unchecked and nonlinear amount of negative camber. this causes a lot of trouble when the car is cornering as this rapid change in camber upsets contact patch and can end with lost grip.

In a strut system, since there is no upper control arm, all the suspension's actions depend on the strut itself. the camber and the caster. by moving the upper mount of the strut you get more camber or caster depending on which way you move it.

When purchasing suspension systems, a multitude of suppliers don't know what is the difference between a shock/spring coil over damper, and a strut damper.



One way to remember is this:

For Strut equipped cars. and ONLY strut equipped cars...if the car has no strut the car is NOT going to move. the tires have no support and the thing will not be able to move.

in SLA cars (such as the Legend) that use Coil Over Shock Dampers. it is theoretically possible to drive the car with ZERO suspension. yes, if you've got the clearance in the wheel well, front and rear ground clearance enough, The tires have the support they need to stand up straight (because of the upper arms) so the car would be able to move under its own power.

Last edited by B+O; 02-19-07 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 07-12-06, 08:54 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Post Official suspension guide by Swift + Coilover, Shocks, Struts, & Springs by B+O

Legend Suspension guide:

Will continue to update with current info.


JIC Majic- Discontiued **the kit that every performance handling kit should be designed after with a spring rate of 12F/8R.
AIMGAIN and other JDM rarities=Good luck

Eibach prokit: $239 (1.1drop,1rear)
Eibach lowering spring sportline:$161 (1.2drop,1.1rear)
H&R springs(29844-1): $349…$226 (1.5drop,1.4 rear)
Vogtland sport springs(957070): $207 (30mm drop)
RS*R springs: *rare. $250+
Suspension Tech springs:$150 (1.3in)
Intrax Springs:$300? (1.8drop,1.5rear)
B&G springs: $200 (1.6drop,1.4rear)

SWIFT TSX springs(custom lengths and rates also):
Spring rate 6/336, 3.6/202

TSX Skunk2 coil-over sleeve kit-$338

Ground control coil-over sleeve kit-$380
Dropzone coil-over sleeve kit(accord?)-$150(fitment issues, may NEED koni’s) Spring rate-500/400

Shocks
Koni reds-$130 each
KYB Gr-2: $75
Tokico shocks
Gabriel
Monroe……………..

When ordering Ground Control kit for KONI’s reference this part number: #10.35.02

Koni yellows sport kit(mellow yellow-non adjustable)- $625


**Most people that have had multiple setups will recommend to use H&Rs with Koni reds; And will not recommend Ground Controls anymore do to cleaning, poor adjuster design, and the kit using short eibach springs.



!!!!!**- Now the question is why would you spend $750 plus on your own shock/spring combo when you can go with full coil-over??? Can you be the guinea pig?? It is worth it? YES. If it does not work sell it on EBAY for the car it was designed for. You should be very mechanically inclined and find ways of adaptation in a safe manner. Here is info regarding a hybrid suspension setup:

https://www.acura-legend.com/vbulleti...highlight=tien

https://www.acura-legend.com/vbulleti...highlight=tein



Full coilover options; TSX/03’ accord+

TSX(DSA64-LUSS2) tein basic or SS kit-$699+
Spring rates- 10/559, 6/336

TSX buddy club: $899+
Spring rates-11/4

TSX TANABE SUSTEC PRO-OO- $1,200---includes helper spring
Spring Rate: 8/4
TSX TANABE sustec pro type 2(LA-CL9) : $850
Spring rate: 8/4

TSX H&R(50151): $975
TSX Neuspeed race cup kit: $599
Spring rates: 400/300


Camber kits:

Ingalls(Issues with rubbing etc..)
Poly ones are 3570 and 3572 ... the rubber is 3571 and 3573. Have a look here for more info: http://www.ingallseng.com/parts/3570.html

SPCperformance: various part numbers for the correction you need, up to $100 each. Highly recommended.
Check out their website for the kit for you.

WEBSITES: Shox.com, tirerack.com, AJUSA, and others.

***Remember that just because you have a suspension doesn’t mean it will handle any better unless you set it up properly and have an alignment done properly. You can form an opinion on the best kit for yourself and hope you enjoy the ride!
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Old 07-12-06, 08:58 PM   #3 (permalink)
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this is not a thread to post your opinions on what you think is best. This is for pure information to help people find what they are looking for.

If you have info on further springs or full kits PM me and i will had it to the list.

Thanks in advance



SPECS coupe...

TOE front: 4degs positive
Rear: 8 degs

Camber....


FULL DONE JIC SUSPENSION, CAMBER KIT, SWAY BARS, STRUT BAR, etc etc.... SETUP>>>>>

KHOERLING/MRKEITH:
Left Front
Camber: -0.9
Caster: 3.4
Toe: -0.03

Right Front
Camber: -0.6
Caster: 4.0
Toe: -0.03

Left Rear
Camber: -1.6
Toe: -0.05

Right Rear
Camber: -1.6
Toe: -0.05*
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Last edited by swift; 09-04-06 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 08-17-06, 03:55 AM   #4 (permalink)
 
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do you think i can fit these on the gen2 legend shocks?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-05...spagenameZWDVW
iam thinking about buying kyb gr2s and installing these, any ideas?
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Old 08-20-06, 09:02 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Don't fool around with ricer stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by soulman
do you think i can fit these on the gen2 legend shocks?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-05...spagenameZWDVW
iam thinking about buying kyb gr2s and installing these, any ideas?
https://www.acura-legend.com/vbulleti...ad.php?t=83233

Do you want your car to handle or do you want it to look good for a week?
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Old 08-20-06, 09:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulman
do you think i can fit these on the gen2 legend shocks?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-05...spagenameZWDVW
iam thinking about buying kyb gr2s and installing these, any ideas?


if anything get Ground Control



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Old 08-20-06, 09:09 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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I would add go to an Advanced Safety Driver School

WEBSITES: Shox.com, tirerack.com, AJUSA, and others.

***Remember that just because you have a suspension doesn’t mean it will handle any better unless you set it up properly and have an alignment done properly. You can form an opinion on the best kit for yourself and hope you enjoy the ride![/QUOTE]

I would add unless you have been taught how to drive (play golf, play the piano, shoot, make love) you are just fooling yourself. You can put all the handling and power mods and you will crash.

Contact the local Porsche or BMW club and go to their driving school, cost $100 or less, best thing you can do, if you do the intro school you can then put your car on the track and go to the next level of instruction. Otherwise cruise it and loose it...

Look at these cars with front end damage - esp, the ENZO, why do you think they had front end damage? Because they thought they could drive, couldn't, went into terminal oversteer, looked at the tree instead of where they wanted to be, and hit it.

http://thebidclub.com/page/photo1.htm

QED

Peace,
Ivanj

Last edited by ivanj; 08-20-06 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 08-20-06, 10:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Use my coupe as a case study for this thread

k.
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Old 08-20-06, 11:27 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanj
https://www.acura-legend.com/vbulleti...ad.php?t=83233

Do you want your car to handle or do you want it to look good for a week?
iam jewish and i like to save some money u know ~.~
no i do want to handle and yes i know what u mean , i had somethign similar ( drop zone) on my prelude and by the time i took them off after 6 months, all of them were BENT!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KYB-G...spagenameZWDVW

OK how about this? i just want to save money on shipping, if i order the shocks and springs seperately, it will cost me too much to get it shipped to canada
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Old 08-20-06, 11:57 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulman
iam jewish and i like to save some money u know ~.~
no i do want to handle and yes i know what u mean , i had somethign similar ( drop zone) on my prelude and by the time i took them off after 6 months, all of them were BENT!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KYB-G...spagenameZWDVW

OK how about this? i just want to save money on shipping, if i order the shocks and springs seperately, it will cost me too much to get it shipped to canada
That ebay kit is junk, I agree. Koni and ADDCO make real stuff for F1, Lotus, etc.

Go to the Group buy above and contact Arthur at shox.com. He'll help you with shipping.

You'll get the best rabbi-type price...as they said in the old neighborhood!

Peace,
Ivanj
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Old 08-21-06, 08:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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hey this is some good info. But I would like some advice though. I changed my suspension and replaced it with the koni sport kit. That includes the koni springs and yellow adjustable shocks. Now the front shocks were placed on the lowest perch. So of course my tires are leaning a bit inward. I believe it was dropped about 1.75" something around there. Which camber kit would be best to use for the front tires? I see some say -+ 1.5 and others upto 3.0. Which would i need for my drop?
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Old 08-21-06, 11:47 AM   #12 (permalink)
 
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I have a cheaper, better solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by brickcitysaint
hey this is some good info. But I would like some advice though. I changed my suspension and replaced it with the koni sport kit. That includes the koni springs and yellow adjustable shocks. Now the front shocks were placed on the lowest perch. So of course my tires are leaning a bit inward. I believe it was dropped about 1.75" something around there. Which camber kit would be best to use for the front tires? I see some say -+ 1.5 and others upto 3.0. Which would i need for my drop?
Forget about camber kits and put the front KONIs back to the upper recommended stock settings. Then do a stock alignment but with zero toe in the front only.

Peace,
Ivanj
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Old 08-21-06, 03:22 PM   #13 (permalink)
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ok but then it wont be at the height that i want it. I know it aint much diff if i lift the car up but i wanted it as low as possible.
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Old 08-21-06, 04:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brickcitysaint
ok but then it wont be at the height that i want it. I know it aint much diff if i lift the car up but i wanted it as low as possible.
don't worry about the camber so much, as long as the you get the toe adjusted you will be good to go. i adjusted my toe in the front and left the camber alone and i have a 3" drop, and so far no camber wear issues. the front is wearing in pretty even, the rear however was really bad up untill recently becuase the toe wasn't adjusted, now it is and so far it good. but i do have a camber kit in the rear but only to make the wheel fill the wheel well better.

The 1.5deg camber kit should be enought for that drop.



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Old 08-21-06, 09:55 PM   #15 (permalink)
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1.5 is not enough for that kit. that is what i have. get the ball join one. i still have 1 degree of negative camber (in specs???). and the 1.5 kit makes the upper control arms hit the fender... and that is after the shop grinded them down so it would not rub as much. get the ball joint ones!!!
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