Excellent information thank you each of you. I think the first attempt should be to get enough pipe in and out of the engine bay in that respect then. Then if that fails then I can go down to twon in and one out so spool time didnn't suffer (not that lag is all that bad for our cars, but it would be a defeating purpose functionally to one turbo. And if that fails I can go one in and one out with 3" Pipe and Y's. Fail meaning not enough space without major work.

Reboticon thank you for the reminder I do need to start watching for X pipes as that is in the plan.

 

a couple quick comments for telion...

I admire you for putting twins in your car, but i believe a single turbo would be easier to put in. Most of us that work on these cars are on very tight budgets so it would be better for us to see a single turbo because it would be more attainable for more of us. But either way you are cooking and I like the work....I look at this thread at least 6-7 times a day.

I know you know your ECUs...so im wondering what kind of managment system you are considering>>is this amount of boost something a chip can handle or will you need a stand alone managment unit.

And sorry to poop on your thread but one more question...
how hard is it to install standalone managment units?? I install car alarms, and all i do is find wires and jump into them, I imagine that managment units are similar to this?? <--by my previous questions you may have noticed i know very little if anything about this subject.

Thanks

 

No worries your not thread pooping, and believe me anyone who knows me knows I love building on a budget, and this project will be no different even with the twin setup and to be honest I have been comparing the price difference between twins and single turbos and really the difference is only a factor when you go with more expensive turbos, or double up on expensive blow off valves and wastegates, but if you stick to a budget (without cutting corners, bend but don't cut) then I would imagine this will be done at a fairly decent price, unless I end up having to get a stand-alone but the goal is not to just for that reason. Shopping and pricing ahead of time helps too.

I don't wanna comment too much on getting the ECU to support it in part because I don't know to what degree this will be successful other than to say that it has been done on a stock ECU so it should be a go. Great question, sorry for the vague answer. I will also be the first to admit I know very little about the AEM EMS but this would be the direction I would suggest going if you were to get a stand alone simply because there are members here with it who would be likely to assist you in troubleshooting or getting you started.

 

Oh i see now, about the two turbos having the same wastegate settings. Naturally if they are sharing a common intake then pressure will equalize.:yes: So i guess, theoretically, it could be possible with some kind of crazy setup with backflow valves and dual pressure sensors but there would be no reason for any of that, just helps me visualize.

Telion, I hope you do go with the twin turbos, just because if you succeed, that will be an amazing feat of engineering on a budget. I think the whole single turbo being better thing mostly comes from the crazy amount of tinkering you will have to do to get them to work. Adding on 1 turbo is usually enough of a daunting task for most sane people!

Would it be possible to swap in a manual steering rack from a late 80s prelude or whatever honda offered it on? You could relocate the battery for the driver side turbo and get rid of the P/S pump + hoses to make room for the other?

 

Oh i see now, about the two turbos having the same wastegate settings. Naturally if they are sharing a common intake then pressure will equalize.:yes: So i guess, theoretically, it could be possible with some kind of crazy setup with backflow valves and dual pressure sensors but there would be no reason for any of that, just helps me visualize.

It is quite simple really, what we did was use a high precision air regulator. gave each waste gate actuator 10 psi and set with a 0.040 feeler gauge under each waste gate flap.

Our new setup will have pressure sensors on the compressor outlet and two boost control solenoids, the ecu will control each turbo individually.

Chris

 

Shouldn't be too crazy and I don't think I will need to go to that extent to be honest. At most I will relocate the battery. I ordered the bulk of the piping for the exhaust and the intercooler today. That will be the next step in seeing what I am really working with but as for space I think I will be close to good.

 

I have a question, what is teh benefit of having the X-pipe before between the headers and the turbos? Grumps did I understand that correct?

 

Yes, you got that correct. Since you're packaging the turbos so close together I would suggest that, if possible, so you'll get even bank to bank distribution of exhaust flow coupled with the smaller diameter pipe your velocity and heat will stay higher. In fact if you could build your pre-turbo y or x-pipe out of heavy schedule 40 (aka weld els) iron pipe, you'd be even better off in the heat department. I would highly suggest that.

Whatever you do, don't merge from the headers into 3" and then split off into the turbo inlets. You'll be wasting tons of heat and velocity with the large diameter tube. You'd be much better off running dedicated 2.25" (2.5" is probably too large) pipes to the inlet of each turbo and then merging afterwards into your single 3" exhaust. If you're going to run a y-pipe at the headers, then I'd run a single 2.5" to the turbos and then y- off from there.

If you'll look at the actual size of the throats in those turbine housings, they're probably 2-2.5 sq in. A 3" pipe has ~7 sq in of area. You see the mismatch here? A 2.5" pipe has an area of ~4.9 sq in. A 2.25" has an area of ~4 sq in. Do you see my argument for a single 2.5" pipe? or twin 2.25"?

Even in NA applications (although mainly odd fire V-8s, not on even fire 90 deg V-6s) the equal bank to bank pressures are important, since the intake manifold is shared, you don't want 3cylinders with more restriction the the other 3, which would affect the cylinder inlet charge and reduce power output...this is nearly the same issue as the wastegate settings. If there is 2psi greater restriction on bank 1 than bank 2, the spent gases will evacuate better on bank 2 and bank 1 will have a more contaminated intake charge. This is really a nit picky thing, for the budget minded guy, you probably should skip the pre-turbo x-pipe idea...but definitely don't y-into anything larger than a 2.5" pipe.

If you go to the 3" pipe off the Y from the headers then neck back down into the turbos you are losing both velocity and heat as compared to twin 2.25" pipes, whether you use an x-pipe or not. Using the x-pipe (or y-pipe) after the turbos won't help equalize bank to bank pressures nearly as well, but thats probably not important for your application.

The turbo exhaust needs to be large after the turbos to increase the temperature (and pressure) differential across the turbine blades.

For example you can run a 3" downpipe, 2.75" from cat to muffler with 2.5" outlet with little to no loss in performance. As the temperature drops the gas becomes more dense and the pipe diameter must be decreased to maintain constant velocity. Of course this is one of those nit picking points. I've done a 4" DP to a 3" full exhaust before, just because I had the pipe and the bends laying around.

Sorry if there are any contradictions... I'm trying to keep your total scope in mind...budget, etc. I tend to get stuck on maximum effort.

as much as we all love twins telion.. my 2 cents would be to use one big turbo say like a garett 60 trim>?, place it where the ac goes but hey its your car

60-trim, that's helpful. That could be either a T3, T04E, or a T3/T04E...all radically different turbos.

Go spend your 2cents on your 300whp Legend.

 

as much as we all love twins telion.. my 2 cents would be to use one big turbo say like a garett 60 trim>?, place it where the ac goes but hey its your car

 

I had considered placing one of the turbos there but then I thought what fun is that I (and everyone else) can see.

 

Ok while I read can anyone think of what else I need such as oil lines which AN size? And would it be beneficial to get a turbo timer?

 

Turbo timer is always a good idea, but you probably don't need it.

Like I said -4AN lines for feed. 1/2" ID high temp hose for return.

Ok here I am considering doing a U shape. Imagine the top of one side of the U connecting to the header then routing to the otherside and going to a turbo on the opposite side of the U. With 2.5" piping so two U's total this will be stainless steel. The purpose of the U to the opposite side is to minimize the degree of the bend

Wow, that makes almost no sense. Minimizing the bend radius isn't anywhere near as important as MINIMIZING THE DISTANCE between the collector and the turbo. Longer than needed piping runs are really just as crazy as running a single 3" pipe prior to splitting off for the turbos.

Skip the stainless steel. It expands twice as much as mild steel, which means it is more prone to distortion and stress fractures. It's also harder to work with and is considerably more expensive.

True I believe they are 2.25"

Not the diameter of the turbo inlet, the area of the throat at the beginning of the neckdown. The actual internal diameter is probably less than 2".

...now on the hotside, it will also be 2.5" inches off the turbos to a 2.5" X-pipe that will route to either a two in two out muffler or a set of mufflers (I am leaning toward the latter of the two)

Off the downpipes do you think a set of 2.5 to the x-pipe then out to a set of straight through mufflers would be fine?

2.5" downpipes to a y-pipe and a 3" back...no reason to put an x-pipe post turbo, a waste of money and more complex for absolutely no gain.

 

The benefit of the x-pipe is to equalize the exhaust pressure on all cylinders AND equilize inlet pressure at the turbos.

So when using twin turbos, lets say they each can push 6psi. Is the wastegate going to be set to 12psi, assuming you are using one intake for both?

edit: eh started posting before grumps long explanation showed up.

 

So when using twin turbos, lets say they each can push 6psi. Is the wastegate going to be set to 12psi, assuming you are using one intake for both?

Wrong. 6psi would be the total pressure unless you're doing compound turbocharging...and that's a totally different deal altogether. As I said, each turbo would make the same pressure but you would have double the airflow.

 

To help visualize what I have so far other than what is seen I will do a quick run down with some pics. This will also double as my check off list.

255lph walbro fuel pump
a couple adjustable FPR's (not a rising-rate fuel pressure regulator)

450cc DSM injectors
a Top fuel Zero1000 BOV

a Top fuel Zero1000 oil catch can

2.5" aluminum intercooler piping (This will need to be x2)

2.5" stainless steel exhaust piping

2.5" X-pipe

Ok already I can see that I am going to need a set of couplers that go from the turbo to the intercooler piping.

I will need a couple filters for the turbos (any ideas?)
Flanges for the turbos/piping

 

Ok I received the X-pipe and I am not too impressed. I will put up pics later but the interior walls have the pipe extruding from them so the air flow will be disrupted even though it is a 1/4 in at its greatest point on each interior wall that you can see the pipe that tells me not much time went into the getting the setup correct before mass producing them I was much happier with the flowmasters Y-pipe design which I had initially thought this would be similar to. so others don't make the same mistake it was an Ebay co. built4race. I guess it can't be better said than you get what you pay for (unless it is a steal of a deal or on clearnace).

 

this thread confuses me in so many levels... i will try to read this over and over to understand, i hope to see master Telion on Pass time or Pinks after this project is finished... btw im freakin confused???!

 

turbo yum

 

Ok here is a couple pics of my current train of thought, I have always liked seeing a set of twins off to the side at the same angle, plus if I get a coupple 45 elbos or maybe some of that dryer hose stuff and a broken JDM passenger headlight I can create a "race-time ram air" and port them directly through the headlight. I have also decided to dump the running a seperate exhaust for each and opeted to go with doing a Y off each one in the engine bay to a 3" exhaust all the way back (room to grow). And yep the hood closes

PS Grumps thanks for bumpin the SC thread I forgot a piping optin till looking at it.

Normally these are the sort of pics you would not see as I am working through my ideas but I really like working this way and getting feedback as I go vs. I did it what do you think. (Pics of progress which depict action)

Personal reminder Normally I do all this in Word so I dont forget.
get better heater core hoses and shield them from the pipe on the firewall and move power wires back there.
-ZEX has purple intake filters
-shield the MAP box
-consider mounting the X-pipe under the car after ex. manifold before and to the turbos.

 

i was jw if its possible to modify the exhaust manifolds from a tt 350z kit to fit on the rl engine? because that might make things easier as far as plumbing goes.

 

I wonder that myself every day lol. Just cut the flanges have a set of custom flanges made and welded to the exhaust manifolds of the 350Z. Does anyone have access to the gaskets for each of these, to see how far off the holes are?

 

I have two sets of custom cnc machined 1/2" thick mild steel Legend head flanges for sale, along with many other parts carefully chosen for a Legend twin turbo setup. I also have plans/pictures if you're interested just e-mail me for them.

http://www.acura-legend.com/vbullet.../f38/fs-94-gs-6mt-blk-blk-92-ls-coupe-silver-lots-mods-parts-upstate-ny-124802/

 

Whoa whoa whoa, we're getting away from a solution here. Kyle already made flanges. 350Z manifolds? Why not just use the OBX header design.

Why not place the other turbo near where the battery is (remove battery and relocate relay box)? If you're going to run the driver's side manifold all the way to a turbo 5 inches away from the other, then it'd be smarter, cheaper, and easier to go with a single. I know the twins will spool better, but you're going to have nearly 3ft between the closest combustion on the driver's side cylinder bank and the turbo. Honestly, if you want this to work well you're going to want each turbo as close to the manifold collector as possible (Cpt. Obvious reporting for duty).

Remove the battery and see what you're dealing with. Either way you cut it, you're going to be removing something more than the battery.

 

Whoa whoa whoa, we're getting away from a solution here. Kyle already made flanges. 350Z manifolds? Why not just use the OBX header design.

Why not place the other turbo near where the battery is (remove battery and relocate relay box)? If you're going to run the driver's side manifold all the way to a turbo 5 inches away from the other, then it'd be smarter, cheaper, and easier to go with a single. I know the twins will spool better, but you're going to have nearly 3ft between the closest combustion on the driver's side cylinder bank and the turbo. Honestly, if you want this to work well you're going to want each turbo as close to the manifold collector as possible (Cpt. Obvious reporting for duty).

Remove the battery and see what you're dealing with. Either way you cut it, you're going to be removing something more than the battery.

Oh good, I was beginning to think no one was watching or overseeing my project (that is a serious statement this is a first for me). Yeah the headers are available but there are a few concerns that I have with them for me. I would want them to be a bit less restrictive as they enter the head and would prefer a design that was a little more similar to the OBX headers. The fact that they are offered with ceramic coating is a mere bonus considering the heat conditions I am going to be working with. Not to mention the price they can be had for under 100.00 as stated, and I don't think Kyle has stated a price for his yet either plus I would need one off each head his kit only comes off the one side. Hmm more reasons than I expected till I started typing. But I will say for a nearly plug and play non pioneering kit his setup is great and will continue to get better I am sure! (re-read and saw that you said flanges not headers (Kyle hit me up with a price for the flanges via pm).

As for the turbo in place of the other battery I did, and somewhat still am, entertaining this idea. I do think it would be pretty cool to have the turbos sitting off to the one side though. Yeah the Supras and simiar straight 6 setups are where this is most common for the very reason you mention, which is keeping them as close to the head as possible. I am going to go out on a limb though and say that this is because they are spooling big twins and it would be critical to get them close to avoid too much lag. For our cars (from what I have learned and read lag would not be such a bad thing it will give my big girl a chance to get some momentum before tehy kick in. my goal is to keep my total pipe length close to Hotlava's setup because I like where he said his begin to spool. If I am way off base please let me know. I apologize, I feel like I am arguing against your statement, but only in hoes to understand the why behind them that are specific to the Legend (even in theory)

Legend4life PM sent good to hear from you it has been awhile!

350 TT manifolds. Already have second port to turbo.Thats why they are thinking of them instead of the OBX, i believe? Everyone but Telion wants a turbo to end up where the battery used to be

Telion- your "projects" move along at a much faster rate than most people average, self included. Lookin good:thumbsup:

I think if you put both turbos right there, you may have one taking longer to spool than the other. Im my head that doesn't seem like that big of deal as long as they share a common intake plenum.

DandDEE - you aren't alone, this thread makes my brain hurt. Its funny the difference between one of grumpys posts here and in the lounge. Both of them make my head hurt but from different spectrums

Thank you, yeah I have to stay busy or I lose interest. I think you were thinking of the downpipes though the headers themselves I don't think have flanges built into them.

I was thinking about the differences in spool time to and was thinking that I will try to get the piping dimensions as close as possible post x-pipe. I am fairly ignorant to boost controllers but I am also going to read up on whether these can assist in that aspect.

Dethred thank you for jumping in with some constructive criticsm though many here may not want that in their thread or want to even in this one I encourage it. It causes me to think and then re-think what I am doing then validate it through researching what has been posted. Oh and yeah re-locating the battery would be nice as well and if you move the window washer reservoir there is a hole there too similar to the on the passenger side, I admit it was appealing.

Here are the headers I was thinking about if they can clear the sidewalls and run toward the front of the car clearing the powersteering pump, and be able to be welded to a set of manifold flanges I would be set. Tomorrow I am going to go to Autozone and compare the gaskets for each and if that is close I will buy a set of the headers similar to the pic to see what happens. damn I should have bought a set from DV8 when he did that.

 

350 TT manifolds. Already have second port to turbo.Thats why they are thinking of them instead of the OBX, i believe? Everyone but Telion wants a turbo to end up where the battery used to be

Telion- your "projects" move along at a much faster rate than most people average, self included. Lookin good:thumbsup:

I think if you put both turbos right there, you may have one taking longer to spool than the other. Im my head that doesn't seem like that big of deal as long as they share a common intake plenum.

DandDEE - you aren't alone, this thread makes my brain hurt. Its funny the difference between one of grumpys posts here and in the lounge. Both of them make my head hurt but from different spectrums

 

Telion- your "projects" move along at a much faster rate than most people average, self included.

Master T never sleeps. (I'm serious)

 

Thanks for understanding. I want this to work and for someone to make and sell ME a kit eventually:bigok: .

I am not sure if those 350Z turbo manifolds would even fit between the head and the wheel well. Hell, it'd be a chop job and you'd be doing some cutting, but maybe running the manifold up between the wheel well and the cylinder head. Kyle seems to have gotten a pipe to make it to the turbe from the passenger-side head. The other side shouldn't be too much different (alternator?) . Its been about a month since I've really looked at the engine bay of my Legend so I am not sure. Don't worry about Supra style or anything like that. Just get a picture of Gary D's unfinished TT project and see how awesome that looks. :thumbsup:

Now with proper tuning and some supporting mods, it just takes time, money, and will power to get this thing going. If you want to make a kit that others can make, you want to avoid things like new radiators and fans, etc. It'd be much easier to say "You have to remove your A/C compressor for this setup" to a speed nut than to get him to buy even more stuff (I mostly say this because I have a relatively new radiator ).

 

Thanks for understanding. I want this to work and for someone to make and sell ME a kit eventually:bigok: .

I am not sure if those 350Z turbo manifolds would even fit between the head and the wheel well. Hell, it'd be a chop job and you'd be doing some cutting, but maybe running the manifold up between the wheel well and the cylinder head. Kyle seems to have gotten a pipe to make it to the turbe from the passenger-side head. The other side shouldn't be too much different (alternator?) . Its been about a month since I've really looked at the engine bay of my Legend so I am not sure. Don't worry about Supra style or anything like that. Just get a picture of Gary D's unfinished TT project and see how awesome that looks. :thumbsup:

Now with proper tuning and some supporting mods, it just takes time, money, and will power to get this thing going. If you want to make a kit that others can make, you want to avoid things like new radiators and fans, etc. It'd be much easier to say "You have to remove your A/C compressor for this setup" to a speed nut than to get him to buy even more stuff (I mostly say this because I have a relatively new radiator ).

Thank you and that is great advice and true. This is a personal project with little to no intent to kit together for others for many reasons such as the ones you mentioned and the fact that I don't want people to try to hold me responsible for what ever goes wrong in their attempt to do this based on a kit from me. I will reserve that right for the supercharger kit (ewe that was prematurely said :hide.

 

I know this picture is terrible but it is the best way I can help explain the routing of the pipes. intake being blue and exhaust red. Hence why the 350z's headers would be a much cleaner, better performing solution.

 

Well, at least consider selling piping and stuff that is custom made, leave the rest up to buyers to pick and then there is little to blame on you (unless there is a boost leak from bad welding ).

 

lol that works,

On a side note an astute eye noticed this would never work because my example was of a sedan and I have a coupe so I fixed it :2cool:

 

Its difficult to tell how the pipes are being routed in that diagram.

 

yeah I agree I will try to elaborate

pipe A starts at the OBX header routes upward at an angle over the backside of the tranny along the fire wall just above the heater core house the out to the point where the MAP box was then toward the front of the car

pipe b starts on the passenger side of the OBX headers and comes across the trannys kick plate then up near the steering shaft and then under the OBX headers, up and over the drivers side axle then up into the engine bay where the ac was.

pipe c starts under the OBX headers then follows the same path as the headers into the engine bay (the rest is just exhaust).

 

Please consider having them each on their own side of the engine bay with minimal distance between the heads and turbo. It'll make it easier and more effective. If you're worried about looks, just look at Gary DePriest's setup and realize that with everything crammed to one side, it will be a bit messy.