Those values on a standalone EMS would not translate to the factory chip, in any meaningful way.

It simply doesn't work like that.

 

I wasn't meaning literally copying over the exact data, but finding the fuel mix, spark, etc. I don't know, just an idea...

 

Can anyone in here tell me what a turbo is...?


~Dv8

 

Can anyone in here tell me what a turbo is...?
~Dv8

I don't have the slightest clue, but I will be posting some pictures you may find interesting.

Runner dimension differences

Runner diameter differences

Differences in the sizes of the collectors

hmmm
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Courtesy of Wiki :EDIT: This response was not intended to disrespect DV8 as I know his question was not directed toward me.
A turbocharger consists of a turbine and a compressor linked by a shared axle. The turbine inlet receives exhaust gases from the engine causing the turbine wheel to rotate. This rotation drives the compressor, compressing ambient air and delivering it to the air intake manifold of the engine at higher pressure, resulting in a greater amount of the air entering the cylinder. In some instances, compressed air is routed through an intercooler before introduction to the intake manifold.

The objective of a turbocharger is the same as a supercharger; to improve upon the size-to-output efficiency of an engine by solving one of its cardinal limitations. A naturally aspirated automobile engine uses only the downward stroke of a piston to create an area of low pressure in order to draw air into the cylinder through the intake valves. Because the pressure in the atmosphere is no more than approximately 14.7 PSI, there ultimately will be a limit to the pressure difference across the intake valves and thus the amount of airflow entering the combustion chamber. This ability to fill the cylinder with air is its volumetric efficiency. Because the turbocharger increases the pressure at the point where air is entering the cylinder, a greater mass of air will be forced in as the inlet manifold pressure increases. The additional air makes it possible to add more fuel, increasing the power and torque output of the engine.

Because the pressure in the cylinder must not go too high to avoid detonation and physical damage, the intake pressure must be controlled by controlling the rotational speed of the turbocharger. The control function is performed by a wastegate, which routes some of the exhaust flow away from the exhaust turbine. This controls shaft speed and regulates air pressure in the intake manifold.

The application of a compressor to increase pressure at the point of cylinder air intake is often referred to as forced induction. Centrifugal superchargers compress air in the same fashion as a turbocharger. However, the energy to spin the supercharger is taken from the rotating output energy of the engine's crankshaft as opposed to normally exhausted gas from the engine. Superchargers use output energy from an engine to achieve a net gain, which must be provided from some of the engine's total output. Turbochargers, on the other hand, convert some of the piston engine's exhaust into useful work. This energy would otherwise be wasted heat out the exhaust. This means that a turbocharger is a more efficient use of the heat energy obtained from the fuel than a supercharger.
(This last sentence in my opinion is a little bias, and I do not fully agree with it)

Turbocharger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I think you're in the wrong place to be asking questions and getting answers. :rofl:

 

Are those differences between the OBX and the Z or between either heads manifold?

A turbo will ALWAYS be more thermoefficient than a supercharger.. Unless its one of those "electric" superchargers just look how much power an A/C compressor steals.

(or was that a joke because you read grumps thesis on it?)

Gasoline engines have been around for over 100 years, and in that time we have only been able to bump their thermoefficiency from about 18% to around 27%.

 

DV8 brings up a good point and I wanna clarify it for a sec. I am going to assume that his point of frustration came about when the duplicating a tune was brought up. see in very lamen terms a turbo increases the amount of air within the engine by forcing more air into it than it could do in a naturally aspirated form. In itself it seems simple enough. But then this only becomes effective if you maintain a balanced amount of fuel to compensate for the additional (compressed) air (A/F ratio). Now to take the air fuel ratio from one car and duplicate it for others with a build of this degree would require it to be specific to an amplified degree. Think of using a digital camera at full zoom vs. at no zoom, at full zoom if you move the slightest bit it shows to a greater degree than a no zoom shot would because the necessity of accuracy in A/F is amplified (a little off sorry). so realistically once you throw in each variable, ie variations in turbos, engine and component(s) condition, exhaust setup, piping size volume capacity variations based on differences in the build, and what not you get further away from the ability to duplicate or create a base tune off one car (think of these variables as more and more zoom on the camera) so the base tune becomes way off base. Though flawed the idea is sound in theory if everything above were exactly the same. I don't think he was literally asking if any of us know what a turbo is but more so if we understand to some degree the role it plays in the actual tuning of an engine and the possibilities of duplicating this effectively as a base tune for other cars. Now of course being that my knowlege of turbos and forced induction is very limited in itself I too could be off base in everything I just said lol.

 

Ok for the time being I will retract mey statement but I know that it has to do with back pressure (more accurately defined as correct air velocity), heat, and lag. But I cannot find the information that led me to not completely agreeing with the last statement. so for now I will let it go. Mainly because I think our cars (being FWD) can benefit from a little lag, and I can't find the detailed information that explained the why in teh comparison of how spent exhaust is also energy that really is not wasted energy unless under perfect conditions. Hell even that didn't make sense but we will get back to that. I think the Legend forum is on the dawn of boost so it could stand a little SC vs Turbo debate like that within every other forum but it would need its own thread Superchargers vs Turbos

 

No matter how you slice it my friend, the parasitic drag on the crankshaft is always there, boost or not. This means that for each unit of fuel making crankshaft horsepower the brake horsepower (bhp) will always be higher on the turbocharged car.

 

alright I will agree, lol that didn't take much. lol I am going to get some sleep now and if you could run through my previous posts to ensure that I am not off base in regard to the current build, or if there is anything I have overlooked lol.

I will say this though for our cars an SC setup would be easier to kit.

 

Any thoughts about a cam for your turbo car?

A good turbo cam usually has 4-6 degrees less intake duration than exhaust, dual pattern, with a lobe separation of 112-114.

You should be wary that the pressure in the exhaust is not higher than the intake with any significant overlap, or you'll run very inefficiently.

At any rate, a 'performance' NA cam will usually make less power than a 'factory' cam with a turbo. Let me tell you why.

Performance cams run more overlap and duration, so they make less low end power, and more top end, as you know. The overlap is used to help motivate the spent gases with the incoming intake charge...the overlap is also responsible for a 'lumpy' idle, since there isn't adequate airflow through the engine to clear the cylinders completely.

If your engine is otherwise optimal, the boosted air can literally blow the fresh charge straight out of the cylinder into the exhaust. If not, the exhaust backpressure will be higher than the intake pressure and you'll get reversion.

So I would suggest either staying with the factory cams or going with something better for turbo.

 

Any thoughts about a cam for your turbo car?

I will probably be going with a set of TI cams since they are less agressive than the
TII's and I sold my RL (and my TII cams) So the webcams will probably go on teh shelf after all is said and done.

:lol: you should let him get what he has working before you start telling him to swap cams. Those dollars gotta be adding up at this point.

Question- what does it take to make the legend run properly with a lopey cam and map sensor? Is it a matter of chipping it or require stand alone?

I will answer this by simply saying whatever it takes for a proper tuning. And it is actually good that he brings this up it is something that I was aware of but many people may not be, but I won't be going as far as having a set of cams made specific to this budget project I will just go with a set of TI cams. Plus they are readily available.

You won't need to weld the wastegates, if you did that they'd make tons and tons of unmanageable amounts of boost and come apart or blow something up. You'll be able to use a boost controller to increase the boost, or even a cheap ball valve...

Do you have some links for me? I've had some old school experience with turbo hondas, but that was when we were using check valves, etc. to fool the ECU and keep from blowing the sensors up.

Other than that, you're looking pretty solid.
Ted.

if anything you'll need to port the turbine housings and wastegate outlets because they might be rather restrictive on the top end...but will probably be ok. If you pay two-way shipping, I'll gladly port those housings for you.

Thank you for the kind offer and I will ship them as soon as I no longer need them in the design phase. To that note though, I thought about this and also wondered if they would become less efficient by doing this I am sure that you aren't going to bore near the turbines nearest point to the blades but is there a true benefit to porting out all the other areas? It makes sense to but I never hear or read about people doing it and wonder why? I wonder because I know you can port an M90 (or any supercharger) incorrectly to a point of inefficiency and produce a effect hmmm.

Oh with the waste-gate welding if I did I was thinking of going with an adjustable external waste gate I may not have been clear in that post and apologize to those who thought the same as grumps. Ad as I read up about the gm 3 bar sensor I will save the sites and weed through the garbage then send you the useful ones as I go.

 

:lol: you should let him get what he has working before you start telling him to swap cams. Those dollars gotta be adding up at this point.

Question- what does it take to make the legend run properly with a lopey cam and map sensor? Is it a matter of chipping it or require stand alone?

 

There's no reason for a big cam, really. I'd probably want to be at the point where I needed an EMS before I'd think about putting that nasty of a cam in.

 

I noticed that no one said anything about the size differences in the headers, so I figured I better ask if the pics made sense?

 

^ I got the impression he was just making his presence in this thread known by asking rhetorical questions?

You can probably find a set of type 1 cams locally for next to nothing but if you need them i have a pair of type 1s for $50 shipped.

 

Very deep Reboticon I get it now. His presence is welcomed and honored, I know he is there behind the scenes, but I enjoy seeing his presence, even as you stated ^

 

I'll port the wastegate outlets 1-2mm depending on available material, smooth the outet, and shape/smooth the neckdown on the inlet, and gasket match it.

(turbine housings are sand cast, so the internal surfaces are extremely rough)

What looks better to you?

 

not bad, I might give it a shot then when I become tired of it I can send them off for round two.

 

Wow, as I look back what began as a turbo build on a budget has become a full blown project (beyond the budget). Now that I have come this far I am going to press forward as though this is the the final stage of the performance part of Killana's build. Then at a later time I will swap out the turbos for some that are a little more serious.

-Legend specific mild steel flanges

-2.5" Turbo Intercooler piping

-02-06 Nissan 350Z VQ35DE V6 Ceramic Racing Headers

-Aluminum Intercooler Piping

-Exhaust Intake piping kit tubing mandrel bend 2 1/2"

-T304 STAINLESS STEEL UNIVERSAL X PIPE 2.5"

-VISTEON / C&R RACING RADIATOR W/ FAN 02-05 CIVIC Si EP3

-Twin Turbo FMIC Intercooler 2-in-1-out

-Top fuel Zero1000 Blowoff valve

-Top fuel Zero1000 Catch can

-Type RS / S BOV Blow Off Turbo Intercooler pipe 3"

-(2)T3 T3/T4 Turbo Inlet FLANGE Mild Steel + Gasket

-(2) 2.5" Exhaust Collector MILD Steel Flange

-(2) 3" Exhaust Collector MILD Steel Flange

-3" Catalytic Converter High Flow Stainless Steel

-3" x 6" Exhaust Flex Pipe Tube 100% Stainless Steel

-TOP SPEED PRO-1 GT-Spec 3" Exhaust Muffler

-Magnaflow two 2.5" in 1 3" out Y-Pipe

*not really build specific but I am also replacing the Clutch reservoir and the
Power steering reservoir with aluminum ones.
(and that is just the items I didn't already have)

 

hey T u wanna stick a price tag on this since i am torn between TBo and SP. and one other thing ( u know i always have questions) is there a specific supercharger kit that would work for our g2 cause my little Project should be coming up soon not to rain on your parade or anything

 

Holy turbo thread T! Everything seems like its coming along nicely. Nice work man i'm jealous i really want to turbo my car but my funds are short. I need to get another car so i can just park my legend and work on it. We should get together sometime man i need to pick at your brain about this project oke:

 

Ok I got a little bit more work done on teh plumbing of the turbos and now have them clocked.

Here is a pic of the passenger side turbo

Here is a pic of the space that has been cleared back out with the droverside turbo in the background

This is a closeup of the driver side plumbing

This is a shot of the pipe that will cross from the driverside exhaust to the turbo on the passenger side

Another shot of the passenger side turbo

This is an engine bay shot with both turbos plumbed

 

Ok I got a little bit more work done on teh plumbing of the turbos and now have them clocked.

After looking at your plumbing, I think you should rethink your routing. I didn't realize you were running your downpipes between the radiator and engine, I thought those were your pipes from the manifolds.

That pipe running by the coils on the passenger side will probably melt them. You have to realize that EGTs between the head and turbo get up to 1200-1400 degrees F, but after the turbo can be 300 degrees lower.

Let me grind my mind and figure out something

 

Its looking really clean. Very impressive. Where are you gonna put the p/s res?

Is the hood going to rub the blue coupler at the back or is there just barely enough room?

 

Its looking really clean. Very impressive. Where are you gonna put the p/s res?

Is the hood going to rub the blue coupler at the back or is there just barely enough room?

Sorry I noticed that I didnt answer your questions. there is plenty of clearance where the elbow coupler is in the back just doesn't look that way in the pic.

I have not decided on the power steering reservoir yet I want it some where that is still easy to get to and being aluminum I guess it would be nice to keep it somewhat visible.

 

hmm, the pipes that exit to the exhaust pipe are not in the pic yet they will take an immediate right angle right angle off the turbo and get wrapped over the passenger side axle and back out. The pipe you see that is going across the top of the engine is alos getting wrapped and has about a1/4 in clearance on each side. Let me know your continued conerns. I do have the ability to still run it wrapped around the drivers side axle. I still have time, your suggestions and ideas is what this thread is all about, next documenting things as I go.

***current sidenote I did forget to mention that the turbos won't literally be sitting on teh radiator as in the pics the goal will be to get them two inches off it.***

Relocating the pipe across the valve cover would be ideal though since that space may get used at a later time.

 

Looks good sitting there, but I don't see that setup being very efficient or practical. A twin is a task in of itself, thats why I went single. (Yes I let some info out.) I want higher hp and I'm no daily driver; which doesn't mean a single wont work for the average manual trans 3.2.

That plumbing is out of control and it looks like at least one turbos oil drain is pointing up instead of down??

Please don't take my criticism as anything short of constructive.

~Dv8

 

Looks good sitting there, but I don't see that setup being very efficient or practical. A twin is a task in of itself, thats why I went single. (Yes I let some info out.) I want higher hp and I'm no daily driver; which doesn't mean a single wont work for the average manual trans 3.2.

That plumbing is out of control and it looks like at least one turbos oil drain is pointing up instead of down??

Please don't take my criticism as anything short of constructive.

~Dv8

Forevra I am going to reply to both in one if that is ok, yeah part of the reason is to say that it is a TT and I am going to head the warning of running the pipe across the valve cover. the end intent is to take the #%)z manifolds and flip them forward but that is going to require another enigine pull and I would like to get atleast a few tt runs down the track this year without having to pull the engine . . .hmm I could put the PS on my mock up engine and see if I can swing them forward and around these units. Thank you for posting each of you. Your constructive criticsm shows that you care(<couldn't think of a better word)

 

if i were you id do away with that other turbo on the driver side, simple is better. Unless your going twin turbo just to say you have a TT. Just stick with a bigger single turbo, there are plenty of turbos out there that spool quickly and have good range. Other than that, great work.

 

I would probably suggest running the twins low behind the radiator with each header feeding into each turbo through a u, then a straight pipe, then a 90 degree. Each turbine inlet facing downward, with each turbine outlet facing the center, so they could immediately y-in together. This would also be easier to make stable and reinforce the piping mounts, as hanging turbos off long hot pipes isn't always a winner.

This would keep all that freakin heat out of the top of your engine bay for sure, compared to your current setup. Seriously, the pipe(s) running up the firewall will also heat the passenger cabin.

I don't know how I didn't see this coming. Should have asked.

I'd clock the compressors to place their outlets perpendicular to the ground facing upward. Then turn them outboard and to each side of the IC.

This scheme would put the inlets facing outwards and keep all the exhaust heat low and central where the greatest airflow is available to carry heat away from the upper engine's sensitive parts. It would improve efficiency by being a shorter piping run as well.

This is the best case scenario IMHO. You can probably get away with what you're thinking, but you also need to think about the brakes being right next to the hot pipe...brake fluid boils.

 

I prefer 'blown'

All iterations.

 

^ sig worthy